Hello there,

I am new to this forum & not really sure how to go about it.

About me :
I live in a developing part of the world.I haven't really studied ethics formally (except as a 1 credit course years ago!) but I have practised it most of my life ... given my little understanding of what is right or wrong. This understanding is ofcourse evolving all the time. I experience a lot of angst & while I blame most of it on the way my mind works, I am also geatly disappointed with the world around me.

I put in a lot of thought into what I do & why I do it. The country I live in is ridden with problems. I always ask my self -am I part of the problem or the solution? And as far as possible I try to be part of the solution. Yet it annoys me no end when people who are the problem have no qualms about it. How do you bring about progress in the world when you refuse to think?

I do not like the idea of putting a label on my forehead but I am a vegetarian (trying to be a vegan!) and an atheist.

I would like to connect with people who have a strong sense of ethics & who can challenge me in a constructive way.

welcome!

I hope you enjoy challenging others and being challenged at felicifia! That's what we're here for!

I'd be interested to hear what you mean when you say people are part of "the problem". To me, it sounds like you're talking about war or corruption, but I can see that you also might have something more general in mind like just lack of compassion.

Ryan

hello again,

All countries have problems, some more than others. Ofcourse poverty and a large population make it worse - scarce infrastructure, lack of sanitation / education / medical facilities, etc. etc. I know these things take time to improve but one can make a difference by making sure we don't add to the existing problems. You don't have to be rich to be clean. You don't have to be evolved to form a queue, that's just common sense. If you don't have enough roads you don't have to break traffic rules & compound the problem. You do not have be extremely compassionate to realise someone is suffering. Its worse when the rule enforcers are the offenders. It amazes me when people make the same mistakes day after day, year after year... where is the learning? Ofcourse there is change but it is soo slow ... & is held up for no reason other than that we do not want to look at ourselves.

Everyone mouths the common stuff that religion teaches - be kind, treat others with respect, be honest, blah, blah.. - but really who believes in it & who follows it? Religious rituals are followed with such fervour but who really thinks about the essence of the religions? (Not that I have very many nice things to say about religion!!)

I struggle to come to terms with cruelty of any sort, esp. against animals. There can be absolutely no justification to treat an animal badly - not religious or otherwise.

There I go whining again!! My friends tell me I should have more patience. I think patience should be exercised with caution - at the right time & for the right amount of time - beyond which it could lead to incompetency. If people cannot THINK do they deserve the privileges of human beings??

Most countries must face similar problems, maybe in varying degrees but I can only speak for what I see around me & hopefully make a tiny difference here. I am angry but I am not unfair.

I like you, Cookies.

I experience a lot of angst & while I blame most of it on the way my mind works, I am also geatly disappointed with the world around me. I put in a lot of thought into what I do & why I do it... I always ask my self -am I part of the problem or the solution? And as far as possible I try to be part of the solution. Yet it annoys me no end when people who are the problem have no qualms about it...I am a vegetarian (trying to be a vegan!) and an atheist.

Same here.

I think patience should be exercised with caution - at the right time & for the right amount of time - beyond which it could lead to incompetency.

I agree.

Do you mind my asking which country you're from? I'm interested to know.

Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so.

- Bertrand Russell

Thank you LadyMorgana! I'm glad there's someone who relates to me & vice versa

I am from India... the country with a huge heritage which sometimes gets a little heavy to bear.

I see from your profile that you are a student. I would so like to go back to being a student myself & study philosophy. A lot of new concepts like consequentialism, utilitarianism, nihilism, etc. that I see here but am not familiar with.

Btw, I like Mika too

Hi again, Cookies

So the email sent from Felicifia telling me that there has been a reply to my post in this thread has been saved as unread in my inbox all this time and finally FINALLY I am getting round to responding to it.

What are you up to this year? Are you living in India? Are you working? I think you'd love studying philosophy - definitely look into utilitarianism more and I'd recommend reading some of Peter Singer's books!

Mika is still awesome.

Hello there, its been a long time since I visited felicifia myself so its nice to have a message waiting

I work with a fragrance company, its a nice industry to be in. I am relocating to Dubai in a few weeks though. Will be interesting to explore another place. Will also have some time on hand and so plan to read up. Any suggestions on what I can start with.. on philosophy... something like a beginners guide? I do have a copy of Animal Liberation which is next on my list.

If I don't hear from you this year, then have a Great 2011!

Hey again Cookies! Do you still come on here much? I find Felicifia quite addictive sometimes!

Dubai must be a really interesting place to work, are you still there? How's it going?

Thought you might be interested in this: http://www.givingwhatwecan.org

Also check out this thread if you want to find some of us on Facebook

And, no, I don't have much useful advice on where to start with reading philosophy...which is just as well cos it probably would have come 9 months too late!

Hey Cookies!

Hope you stop by here again, I think many of us here are vegetarian/vegan atheists

I wish you luck and strength to keep up the good fight - share with us how you've been - perhaps we can help somehow.

All the best

In case you guys don't know, there's an 'email user' function on the profile screen you get if you click Cookies' name.

Hello Boris,

Thanks for the encouragement. I could do with every bit of it

I am still fighting dairy but not always successfully. The problem is not temptation but the lack of substitutes so sometimes I do give in. I would be very interested in knowing from you, & others in this forum, how you manage
your diet. What have been your experiences... or rather what led you to becoming a vegetarian/vegan?

Do share.

Cheers,

[quote="Cookies]The problem is not temptation but the lack of substitutes [/quote]

Some useful links from Daniel Dorado are here:
http://felicifia.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=438#p3424

I have additional challenges due to food allergies, but in general meat substitutes include a good mix of grains (wild rice, barely, millet, quinoa), nuts, beans, and seeds. You can get fortified versions like powdered soy milk, peanut butter, sunflower seed "butter," rice protein, tofu, tempe, hemp seed protein.

I explored most of the links above, but haven't found a good web site for my needs. I would like to see complete menus that reflect all the scientific information and fit my situation.

Here is what happened to me: I wanted to find a cheap and nutritious source of protein that fit my allergy situation and was available in the remote location where I lived. I discovered ground flax seed, and started eating lots of it (high in omega-3). I then discovered that it can block absorption of other nutrients. Then I recently found that the type of omega-3 in it is not the specific type of omega-3 that I really need (per the happycow.net web site). Hemp seed and others seeds have some of the same problems, but I don't have much choice.

If you find good resources, post them here: http://felicifia.org/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=438#p3424

Hi Cookies,

Dairy products have considerably lower impact per kilogram than all other animal foods. So if there's a risk that trying to abstain completely from dairy will cause you to relapse to eggs, chicken, or fish, then you might consider including some dairy here and there.

That said, vegan diets can totally be done. You may have come across resources online for vegan nutrition, like this one. In particular, make sure to take a B12 supplement.

Alan

@ Cookies: I'm "just" a vegetarian, so I still have dairy and eggs. I don't feel guilty (much), and I second Alan's comment about the possibility of your relapsing onto a worse kind of food, or deciding to throw in the towel on the whole utilitarianism thing, which would be disastrous.

Maybe you could just eat dairy from "nice" sources?
Or perhaps you could do a sort of bargaining like... "For every dollar I spend on dairy I precommit to send 50 cents to [Insert Utilitarian Charity Here]". I'm thinking of implementing a system like that, to remove the last vestiges of guilt and make me give more. This approach would probably lead to less suffering overall, unless you're already giving most income to charity...

That said, vegan diets are almost certainly achievable.

Hi Cookies, I think how difficult it is to sustain a vegetarian/vegan diet also depends a lot on your social environment and the ease of finding suitable "substitutes" for non-vegan food. I found it easy to switch to a vegetarian diet when I started going to university, because there was always at least one dedicated vegetarian choice for lunch. After I found out that I prefer the taste of soy milk to that of cow milk I felt like I could really eat vegan. And it worked out quite well.

Interestingly, my development was something like this:
1. Know that animal products are bad form an ethical perspective, but...
2. Realized that I really have the choice to go without animal products and became aware of alternatives.
3. Did some online research and found out that animal products aren't even really healthy.
4. Changed my diet and stuck to my decision.

I guess I'm lucky to live in Germany. The supply with vegan products is relatively good here - well, in supermarkets and online shops, not so much in restaurants.

If you want to change your eating habits, do so slowly, but consistently.

Currently I'm supplementing vitamins D, B12 and DHA, just to be on the safe side (even though I feel no difference in my well-being regardless whether I take them or not), and because it is recommended in an interview with a vegan nutritionalist here: http://arzone.ning.com/profiles/blogs/t ... malgorzata

Gedusa wrote:I'm "just" a vegetarian, so I still have dairy and eggs.

Why not dairy and beef instead?

The eggs are always free-range. I never have eggs when out and am trying to phase them out in general due to concerns that you raise (problematically, a lot of the meat substitutes around have eggs in them, though they are claimed to be free-range). Though I don't think I can ever get myself off dairy

I would be perfectly happy with someone else just eating beef and dairy (or some other combination that tried to minimize suffering) it's just that I don't think I can get myself to go back to beef even to avoid eggs; the disgust reaction at meat is starting to kick in a bit.

At least it's not fish...

Makes sense!

Free-range eggs don't sound too bad. And when products contain just trace amounts of eggs, it's not a huge concern. (After all, the point is suffering per kilogram -- the kilogram part matters too. )

Wow! So many replies Thank you Rehoot, Alan, Gedusa & Mike for writing in. I will surely check out all the links.
To clarify, there is no chance of my going back to meat, unless ofcourse it is a matter of survival... & even then I don't know if I could. I gave up meat over two decades back so there is no remnant of temptation. The thought of eating / wearing / harming an animal is just so repulsive. Over the years I have eliminated leather, silk, wool, pearls, etc. etc. from my life. I hope to, someday, own a comfy pair of ethical shoes that won't kill my feet!! While this is still manageable, where I slip is ice-creams, chocolates, cakes & foods that would have butter, cheese, etc. & then I feel awful for encouraging the dairy industry. I have been off ice-cream for a few months (even though some friends have left 5 tubs of ice-creams in my fridge ) If I had my own farm I would consume dairy & perhaps eggs knowing that no harm had come to the animals but I have no such plans

I did consider the option of free-range eggs but they seemed suspect. I have recently started B12 supplements. But I definitely feel the need to improve my diet & am glad to find any healthy
foods.

Out of curiosity, how do you manage with leather, wool substitutes? I am guessing most of you live in cold countries.

"I think how difficult it is to sustain a vegetarian/vegan diet also depends a lot on your social environment and the ease of finding suitable "substitutes" for non-vegan food."[quote][/quote]

Mike, I couldn't agree with you more on this. I eat better around vegetarians.

Also, I am not sure if eating animal products is 'unhealthy' because I see a lot of healthy meat
eaters around. But it doesn't seem 'ethical' to me & that is the only reason I abstain.

About the health aspect of eating meat: Some of the most convincing findings are presented in the book The China Study. Nutrition and health researcher Colin T. Campbell makes a convincing case that animal protein is the main driving force of diseases of wealthy nations like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and many others. That conclusion is extracted from correlations found in the greatest nutritional study ever made.

Anyway, those findings aren't uncontroversial. Interestingly, the life expectancy of (lacto-ovo) vegetarians is higher than that of vegans (which is about the same as for omnivores). There's some speculation that insufficient B12 and DHA supplementation might be the reason for that. But psychosocial factors perhaps are more important. After all, a vegan lifestyle can cause a lot of stress. Being a vegan in a world that is still dominated by meat eaters certainly is no effortless task. It would be interesting to see a study about the relative life expectancies once vegans represent the majority

Thanks for sharing that Mike! Useful to know.

Off late I have come across some great vegan options. I didn't think I would like soy milk but it's not bad at all!!
Just bought some soy butter-like spread today & am thrilled that I can eat like normal people

I agree on the stress associated with a vegan lifestyle, there's practically nothing to eat when I step out.... anything & every thing has eggs / butter. But I still wouldn't alter my choices. I like myself better this way

After all, a vegan lifestyle can cause a lot of stress. Being a vegan in a world that is still dominated by meat eaters certainly is no effortless task.

The correlation may also be due to the kind of people who are more likely to become vegan (ie. 'sensitive' to the pain of non-human animals, strong sense of justice and a tendency to analyze cruel behavior, ). As you say, lack of B12 (which is fortified in soy milk) and DHA (there are algae-derived DHA supplements and it's thought that healthy bodies can convert omega 6 fatty acids into omega 3 fatty acids) might be a bigger factor, though.