Bestiality and the noumenal order

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Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby Gee Joe on 2010-12-17T23:44:00

I found an article on bestiality from a well educated non-utilitarian ethical point of view which is interesting, and I'd like to share it with you and also share a few questions I have in regards to it.

The article is an extract edited by someone, from the book by Clive Hamilton The Freedom Paradox: Towards a Post-Secular Ethics, published in 2008.


What's Wrong with Bestiality Anyway?
Morally dumbfounded by sex with dogs? In this extract from his latest book, Clive Hamilton argues for existential distinctions between species


Acts that are considered to contravene moral norms elicit emotional responses from those who witness or contemplate them. Depending on the nature of the act, they may make us feel annoyed, bewildered, outraged or disgusted. Such feelings are inspired both by acts that breach universal ethical principles and by acts that merely contravene social conventions or etiquette, although the intensity of the reaction is usually greater in the former case. Having noticed these strong emotional reactions, moral philosophers typically set out to understand the rules or principles that have been breached to cause such effects.

With the possible exception of necrophilia, no purely sexual act elicits in us more revulsion than bestiality.

In Good Sex, his recent study of sexual ethics, American philosopher Raymond Belliotti uses a post-Kantian ethical framework to discern why bestiality might be morally wrong. With admirable philosophical honesty, he declares himself unable to reach an obvious conclusion as to the immorality of bestiality. Belliotti notes that even though animals have moral status because they have interests, they do not necessarily have a moral status equal to that of humans.

The strongest argument against bestiality is the lack of consent. It is not, however, apparent that animals suffer as a result of bestiality or that their interests are greatly impaired. As a result, Belliotti says, lack of consent seems inadequate to establish the wrongfulness of bestiality.

Next he asks whether it is wrong because the animal, a sentient being, is used as a mere means to a human end. Once again, it is not apparent that the interests of the animal are affected by being used as a mere means. The animal might be exploited during the act itself but otherwise be very well treated. Despite the lack of obvious reasons, Belliotti does conclude that bestiality is immoral, although the grounds for his conclusion are weak.

Reflection on the matter does not produce any compelling explanation for why we find bestiality repugnant. This "moral dumbfounding" is not uncommon. When Rolling Stone Keith Richards told an interviewer he had snorted his father’s ashes, the hostile public reaction caused him to hastily announce that he was only joking — although it is not at all clear why snorting one’s father’s ashes should be immoral.

Jonathan Haidt gives the example of the brother and sister who one night in a remote cabin decide to have sex out of curiosity. They take all precautions against pregnancy and enjoy the experience but decide not to do it again and to keep it secret. It is hard to find a good reason to condemn them. They were fully consenting, there was no chance of conception, and both enjoyed the experience. In cases like this we can reach strong moral judgments without a maxim in sight. Haidt argues persuasively that moral reasoning typically occurs after a moral judgment has been made intuitively and is used to rationalise the reaction.

Nevertheless bestiality remains a powerful taboo. So perhaps we should try a different approach and work backwards. Instead of trying to explain why we feel revulsion, let us accept revulsion as a given and ask what this fact can tell us about the ethical framework I have developed.

That one feels disgust at something — as some do with homosexual sex — does not make it morally wrong, but the enduring and universal social taboo relating to bestiality makes it reasonable to accept that it is wrong. Note first that, because the interests of the animal are involved, it is legitimate to take a universalising stance: we would not just advise against a proposed act of bestiality; we would condemn it as immoral. Moreover, there are good grounds for believing that the person who engages in bestiality suffers from a perversion that may have an effect on other humans. Society therefore has a moral interest in bestiality.

If bestiality does not necessarily contravene a practical rule we must go to the basis of moral rules. That basis cannot be found in Kantian reason or in utilitarian calculus: it is to be found only in the notion of metaphysical empathy and the understanding of each human being as both phenomenon (that is, as a physical self existing in the world of everyday experiences) and noumenon (an "essence" or moral self). As we have seen, the reasons for the immorality of bestiality are hard to situate in the phenomenon.

So what is it in our moral selves that makes the practice repugnant?

Considering the functions of sex, it seems that the source of the problem must lie in the idea of metaphysical union, the joining of Selves. It is reasonable to hypothesise that there is something intrinsically different between the universal Self of each species and that the attempted merger of two differing Selves in the sexual act is an offence against what might be called "the noumenal order".

In The World as Will and Representation, Arthur Schopenhauer argued that each species can be considered the representation of a Platonic Idea. If the world is the expression in phenomenal form of the noumenon, it is expressed in many grades or forms. Thus, while two rocks of a specific type scarcely differ, higher animals are differentiated into individual forms. Each species of animal reflects a Platonic Idea that captures all that is universal to the species and resides unchanged in its individual forms.

These "species ideas" are the unique manifestations of the noumenon before they appear in the phenomenon. This is what lies behind Schopenhauer’s conclusion that bestiality is "really an offence against the species as such and in the abstract, not against human individuals". As a result, each of us has a moral interest in any act of bestiality.

If this argument holds it provides a basis for judging bestiality as immoral because it violates the essential integrity of both human and animal. The repugnance we feel is an inbuilt mechanism that discourages offences against the noumenal order, a metaphysical reaction that is expressed as a visceral one — perhaps analogous to the physical disgust people feel when confronted by rotten food. If we accept that there is such a thing as the noumenal order, the way we consider the morality of bestiality must change.

Although the interests of an individual animal might not be harmed, the interests of each species can be. Such a view contradicts the rights-based approach shared by post-Kantians (such as Belliotti and John Rawls) and utilitarians (such as Peter Singer), which assesses an act as right or wrong according to how it affects the interests of individuals.

It is worth noting that if there is something existentially distinct between species, the position of animal ethicists — notably Peter Singer, who argue that humans and animals are in the relevant sense the same and their interests should therefore be given equal consideration — is undermined. Accepting Singer’s view has a number of ethical implications, including vegetarianism. The noumenal order I propose leads us to declare bestiality immoral because it violates the essence of the species, but eating meat does not have the same metaphysical implications.

It might seem curious that in setting out to uncover the ethical case against bestiality we end up questioning the ethical case for vegetarianism. It seems we can eat animals but we cannot have sex with them. This is not so surprising when we remember that almost all humans feel disgust at bestiality but not many feel disgust at eating meat.

Of course, this does not mean there are no other reasons for deciding to avoid meat, among them the cruelty inflicted on animals destined for human consumption and the environmental degradation associated with meat production. Nor does it mean an ethical approach to the treatment of animals should disregard their sentience and thus our obligation to respect them as manifestations of the noumenon.

But if we accept our revulsion at bestiality as a given fact it does seem to make intuitive sense that animals are metaphysically distinct from humans. This deepening of our understanding of the noumenon has wider implications for the relationship of humans to the natural world.


Besides some objections I have such as to the assertion that bestiality involves lack of consent, or that there are good grounds for believing that the person who engages in bestiality suffers from a perversion that may have an effect on other humans (studies don't support this view), I have some questions.

- If this offence against the 'noumenal order' is a metaphysical reaction that is expressed as a visceral one, then how do we differentiate between a visceral reaction that involves offence against the 'noumenal order' and a visceral reaction that does not?

- How is the abstract interest of a general species shown? What constitutes integrity for a general species? Is it found through discretion of the majority?

- And more importantly, how does one get even close to proving that the 'noumenal order' exists or that it is a valid idea? Sounds mumbo jumbo to me.
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby Arepo on 2010-12-23T14:45:00

I can't imagine anyone here sticking up for that idiocy.

It is worth noting that if there is something existentially distinct between species, the position of animal ethicists is undermined.


If there is a lumineferous aether, the position of modern physicists is undermined. Having set up a conditional argument, one needs to show some kind of evidence for the condition before it need concern anyone.

Also

the enduring and universal social taboo relating to [x] makes it reasonable to accept that [x] is wrong


Does it, now? Why, exactly? And what's this 'universal' nonsense? Given that he feels he has opponents against who to make this argument, it clearly isn't.
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby Gedusa on 2010-12-31T16:45:00

Before I start, isn't it interesting how he managed to begin in a position of doubt and then prove he had previously believed in. Very convenient, and makes me distrust his argument already.

Firstly, we can dismiss most claims of a "noumenal order". It's unbearably dualistic, pretty much unscientific. I haven't read any more of his stuff so I don't know if he applies this sort of reasoning in all areas, but it seems like he's just inventing an argument and not really reasoning from first principles. To provide something of a reductio ad absurdum, it seems like his reasoning could be applied to homosexuality (which he denies it can) e.g. Micheal Levin's http://www.philosophicalturn.net/CMI/Homosexuality/Levin_Why_Homosexuality_Abnormal.pdf (awful copy, sorry). I say this because Levin says behaviour can be normal/abnormal depending on whether it is "natural", and this seems like something similar to the argument that biological forms are intrinsically important.
How is the abstract interest of a general species shown?

I would take the standard util position and say that the value of the species is the individual value of each member of it plus the value the members have to other individuals (e.g. lots of individuals of a species maintains ecosystems or humans liking cute animals prancing around). I think his position is pretty incoherent, making it difficult to see what he would answer to that question. Perhaps some reference to the integrity of the form of the species? Though it's difficult to see how a form could be damaged, it would be like trying to damage a number.
how do we differentiate between a visceral reaction that involves offence against the 'noumenal order' and a visceral reaction that does not?

Very difficult to do so. For me no differentiation is necessary, no noumenal order exists (probably). It's difficult to see why a reaction against the noumenal order and a simple visceral reaction would differ in terms of the strength of feeling they evoke in the person, and assuming utilitarianism, that's all we should care about.
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby David Olivier on 2011-01-25T13:42:00

It's interesting to see that for Schopenhauer, and for Clive Hamilton, the species concept is a metaphysical, essentialist one. Schopenhauer lived before Darwinism and can be forgiven, but Hamilton should know better now that Darwinism has gained general recognition. Or at least he should warn that his species concept is at odds with modern biology.

Hamilton is not alone in this. I think that today the species concept continues to be seen by philosophers, and by the speciesist public in general, as much more than what would be justified on the basis of its official scientific definition, as describing groups of individuals that are no longer capable of interbreeding. It's as if the concept had two sides:

  • side one: a respectable scientific concept, based on a respectable biological definition;
  • side two: a heavily loaded metaphysical, essentialist concept.

Side one - the scientific concept - serves to give side two - species-as-essence - some kind of fake scientific validation. "Science says that there are species - hence you cannot deny that humans and animals are essentially different".
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby David Olivier on 2011-01-25T13:54:00

Another issue I have with that text is that I am not conviced at all that everyone is so disgusted by the idea of sex with non human animals. I for one feel no special repulsion at the idea. Nor do I feel attracted by it. Perhaps my indifference is the sign that I am repressing something? It also seems that many people do have sex with animals, as described for instance in Peter Singer's piece, and are not especially disgusted.

Just on a descriptive level, how do others here feel about it?

And what about the idea of eating human flesh? That too is often seen as a universal taboo, as something terribly disgusting, but then people have no particular qualms about eating pieces of their own skin when gnawing at their fingertips, for instance; or about drinking their own blood, when they cut themselves. Personally, I feel no particular disgust about the idea. Much less, for instance, than at the idea of eating a rotten potato (rotten potatoes really stink).
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby DanielLC on 2011-01-25T17:57:00

I'd expect repulsion would be a sign that you're repressing something, not indifference.

I'm pretty indifferent to sleeping with animals, though I've never actually seen anyone do it. The same goes for eating human flesh. I don't know if I'd be able to stomach it if I was there and it really happened, but conceptually I'm fine.

I really don't see why that's even considered eating a human. A human is a mind, not a body. Human remains aren't human. It's just a pile of meat.

Why are we even arguing about this? It's a patently ridiculous Deontological claim. There's nobody here that would be convinced by it. Why dignify it with a response?
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby Jesper Östman on 2011-01-25T18:50:00

I believe the select group of people here, and probably utilitarians in general are less disgusted by cannibalism and bestiality than people in general are.

First, demographics would predict this. Haidt found in his studies that rich, well-educated westerners are are less likely to think such acts should be illegal (well, at least he tested the thought experiment of a man having sex with a dead hen, and then eating it and also that of a family eating their own dog).

Furthermore, I believe utilitarians, and in particular those around here are a lot higher on the trait openness to experience in the big5 scale. Being high in openness is correlated with having lower disgust responses.

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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby David Olivier on 2011-01-26T10:47:00

DanielLC wrote:I'd expect repulsion would be a sign that you're repressing something, not indifference.


In psychoanalysis, boredom or indifference is often seen as a sign of repression.

I'm pretty indifferent to sleeping with animals, though I've never actually seen anyone do it.


I've had male cats, despite being castrated, perform lengthy masturbatory acts on my feet. I let them do it because they seemed to enjoy it, but I can't say that I felt much involved. I didn't notice any change in my noumenon, either.

Why are we even arguing about this? It's a patently ridiculous Deontological claim. There's nobody here that would be convinced by it. Why dignify it with a response?


I agree that there are a lot of absurdities in that text; but I do think that many people believe in such absurdities. It's always good to try to analyse things a bit.
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby David Olivier on 2011-01-26T10:57:00

Jesper Östman wrote:Furthermore, I believe utilitarians, and in particular those around here are a lot higher on the trait openness to experience in the big5 scale. Being high in openness is correlated with having lower disgust responses.


What's the big5 scale?

What we believe does influence how we feel, but not in an absolute fashion. Even if rotting potatoes were proven to be very good for health, I think they would still disgust me.

The idea of a cat being harmed and killed in animal experiments revolts me much more than that of a dog suffering the same fate; despite my rational self telling me that both are equally bad since what counts is not that cats are, in fact, much more likeable, intelligent, witty, noble-minded and good-smelling than dogs, but that dogs like cats are sentient beings.
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby Jesper Östman on 2011-01-26T18:34:00

The "big five" trait personality psychology scale, see eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_p ... ity_traits
During the last decades it has been emerging as the scale of choice for many (perhaps most?) personality psychology studies. Basically, it postulates 5 nearly independent dimensions of personality.

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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby David Olivier on 2011-02-01T12:43:00

Thanks, I hadn't heard of that. I'm not sure I'm convinced by its validity. I am probalbly very open in some ways, much less in others. And it also changes day to day.
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby Mike Radivis on 2011-08-10T21:54:00

It's interesting to see people coming up with weird metaphysics to justify their own prejudices. I guess it's a typical case of "What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves." - or status quo bias for that matter.

Imagine the same essay was about sexual relationships between members of different races. In that case, the analog argument would be dismissed as racist nonsense. The fact that speciesism is still widely accepted makes it possible possible that the original article has a chance of being accepted uncritically by a relatively broad public.

If you want to preserve speciesism, it is not acceptable for you that some people see animals as equals in most respects. Some zoophiles even marry their animals. That's a rather bad trend for speciesism. (I'm personally not fond of the concept of marriage in general, but that may be offtopic.)

Sites that draw a connection between zoophilia and anti-speciesism to some degree are for example
Equality For All and Vivid Random Existence (see especially the posts Zoosexuality: should it be considered acceptable? and Common arguments against zoophilia (and why they fail).

However, it's interesting that even many animal rights organizations oppose zoophilia (I was actually kicked out of one, because I opposed their policy in that point). On the other hand, not all animal rights organizations are really anti-speciesist.

Are there any anti-speciesists who condemn zoophilia?
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Re: Bestiality and the noumenal order

Postby Gee Joe on 2011-08-13T18:51:00

I have a zoosexual friend who also spoke about the rejection of zoosexuality being part of a conspiracy style broader scheme to deny equal traits and rights to non-human animals, as it would undermine the trend of human supremacy.

I've spoken with zoos about marriage too, most think it's silly as the non-human animal does not understand the meaning of the rite. However it could serve as a public statement to society, that would be the only reason I'd marry my dog.
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