Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

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Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby David Olivier on 2011-01-25T16:16:00

In his piece "Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?", Alan Dawrst argues that refraining from eating a given number n of animals may not save n animals, but has an effect that is ethically equivalent: it diminishes by that same amount the expected value of the number of animals who will be raised and slaughtered.

I think the issue is of some importance, and I agree with Alan's conclusion. I also agree with his reasoning:

Assume it takes 200 fewer consumers of chicken wings in order for the supermarket to buy one less case. Inasmuch as individual consumers have no way of telling whether their particular wing will be the one that changes the number of cases purchased, the probability of any given carton being the determining factor is 1/200. The expected value of an action is the probability that a benefit will result times the magnitude of the benefit if it does result, so the expected value of refraining from the purchase of any given carton of milk is (1/200)(1 fewer case purchased)(200 wings/case) = 1 fewer wing purchased. The exact expected values will of course fluctuate on account of the randomness of the purchasing agent's decisions (if, for instance, she would not buy one fewer case until 300 fewer consumers demanded wings, even though each case includes only 200 wings), but they should average out over the long run in such a way that forbearing the purchase of any given amount of an animal product will be expected to reduce bulk purchase of that amount of the product.

This logic applies also to the rest of the factory-farmed-meat demand process: at some critical mass of fewer cases ordered by stores, distributors will purchase fewer chicken wings from farms, and that reduced demand from farms will, at some point, constrict production. By the end, the probability that any given consumer will impact animal production is miniscule, but the benefits if he does are immense. Thus, the expected value of refraining from the purchase of any given amount of an animal product is roughly equivalent to preventing the production of the portion of an animal that the product represents.


The problem with this reasoning is that it is dependent on the specifics of particular situations: crates of wings, sheds of chickens and so on. It is easy for each example to appear to be just that: a particular example, disconnected from other cases.

There is a simpler and more general way to get to the same conclusion.

The basic idea is that probabilities, and hence expected values, are essentially subjective, that is depend on what we do or do not know. Now, as Alan says, "[e]veryone in the debate agrees that, at some point, a substantial decrease in demand for meat--for instance, conversion to vegetarianism by half of the US population---would diminish the quantity supplied of factory-farmed animals". Given what we know, we can plot the expected value N(n) of the number of animals who will be raised and slaughtered against the number n of animal bodies that are eaten. That curve will be such that, for instance, if n was halved, the expected value N(n) would be halved too: N(n/2) = N(n) / 2. Actually, for any set of far-spaced values of n, such as in figure 1, the expected value will be approximately proportional to n:

drawing1.png
Figure 1
drawing1.png (6.45 KiB) Viewed 3108 times


Between those points, how will the curve behave? It is true that the real number of animals raised and slaughtered will vary by large chunks, such as when an investor decides whether to build another shed for producing batches of a hundred thousand broiler chickens. So we might expect the curve to be as in figure 2:

drawing2.png
Figure 2: a curve with discontinuities at particular points
drawing2.png (5.95 KiB) Viewed 3108 times


But the fact is that, barring particular circumstances, we have no idea at what points such discontinuities will occur. Since the expected value is a function of what we know, it cannot reflect any such discontinuities. It will have to be smooth:

drawing3.png
Figure 3
drawing3.png (5.94 KiB) Viewed 3108 times


This means that any variation, however small, in the value of n will produce a correspondingly small variation in N(n). Eating one less chicken will be ethically equivalent to saving one chicken.

The difficulty people have in grasping this is that they tend to switch back and forth between the expected value and the real value.

This line of reasoning is more formal and general than Alan's. I think that it does not actually replace it; rather, it is complementary. Alan's reasoning is more concrete, because it shows the particular way things can be in specific cases.
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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby DanielLC on 2011-01-25T18:15:00

There's one thing people always seem to leave out. People eating less chicken will mean that the more costly chicken farms will close, which will lower the price for chicken, resulting in other people eating more. The effect of this depends on the elasticity. Specifically, I think it's amount boycotted * price elasticity of supply / (price elasticity of supply + price elasticity of demand). Unfortunately, I don't know what those values are.
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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby Jesper Östman on 2011-01-25T18:56:00

A detail: wouldn't the important variable be the number of chickens bought, rather than the number of chickens eaten? (eg if someone eats a discarded dead chicken, which would otherwise not be eaten that shouldn't affect new investments in chicken farming)

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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby David Olivier on 2011-01-26T10:13:00

Jesper Östman wrote:A detail: wouldn't the important variable be the number of chickens bought, rather than the number of chickens eaten?


I agree with your point, in that eating discarded meat or roadkill, for instance, doesn't directly make a difference (it may very well have indirect consequences, though).

But sometimes it's not the act of buying that matters, either. If you are invited to dinner by a farmer, who plans to serve you roast chicken from a chicken that he himself has raised, there is no buying, but still explaining in advance that you will not eat the chicken will have the same effect as, in other circumstances, not buying a chicken.
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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby David Olivier on 2011-01-26T10:24:00

DanielLC wrote:People eating less chicken will mean that the more costly chicken farms will close, which will lower the price for chicken, resulting in other people eating more.


I don't really see why that should be the case. Unless there some reason why the more costly farms manage to stay alive in the first place, such as their being able to claim higher quality for their products or their being closer to some group of buyers, they will be doomed in any case, because of the competition from the lower price farms; in other words, because prices are, generally, aligned with those of the cheapest producers. If they do have arguments like those I mentioned, it means they sell only to a small sector of the population; it's only if the people who stop eating chicken come from that particular sector that those more costly farms will close. And in any case, that will have no effect on the price of the chicken produced by the lower cost farms, which will already be low.
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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby Arepo on 2011-01-26T12:44:00

Even if Daniel's claim is entirely correct and the market is perfect, it still suffers from a time-lag. If one chicken is eaten later rather than now, it seems like all future market oscillations will be shunted onward to the time when it's eaten. So at any given point, the expected amount of chicken eaten seems like it would be lower.
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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby RyanCarey on 2011-01-26T21:53:00

But DanielLC, also reducing the demand for chicken will reduce the total amount of chicken produced, which would reduce the economies of scale that can be employed in farming chicken, making chicken slightly more expensive right?

Not that I'm an economist.
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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby DanielLC on 2011-01-26T22:48:00

Unless there some reason why the more costly farms manage to stay alive in the first place, such as their being able to claim higher quality for their products or their being closer to some group of buyers, they will be doomed in any case, because of the competition from the lower price farms;


Not exactly. Thinking about it some more, it's more about the feed than the animals. In some areas, the soil and weather is better than others, meaning the crops grow better. These areas would out-compete the others, except that they aren't enough to supply the whole market. When there's less meat, the less productive areas would be used for something else, meaning the feed would be cheaper, so the meat would be cheaper.

Ryan, in some cases economies of scale can make the price elasticity of supply negative. In that case, the equation I gave comes out higher than one, so you'd make more than your share of difference. I don't think this is the case with meat. There isn't one giant factory farm. There's a bunch of smaller ones. If they want more meat, they build another ranch. They don't scale stuff up.
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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby David Olivier on 2011-02-01T11:19:00

Daniel, I think I see your point better now. The borderline case would be that of a product with a maximum production capacity, where the demand is higher than that capacity. For instance, bottled water from a renowned spring, which will give only so many liters a day, no matter what the demand. If a few people give up buying that product, others will buy it in their place; the price may go down, but the total production will remain unchanged. In a less extreme case, the price of production will rise as it approaches the limit; or perhaps will rise, without their being any specific limit.

In the case of meat, that may apply, particularly for fish. We hear a lot about "overfishing", which doesn't mean that it causes too much pain to the fish, but that there is a limit to the amount that "resource" that can be exploited, and that the demand is already above that limit. Abstaining from eating fish just means, then, that someone else will eat the fish that you didn't. I don't have the impression that the same applies much for chicken, pigs and so on, though. If people were to ask for ten percent more or less of their meat, the production would probably follow suit, without much change in prices, except perhaps on the short term.

In any case, it would probably mean that refraining from eating two chickens, perhaps, would save one. The point would remain that refraining from eating animals does have a significant effect on (the expected value of) the production.

An effect that is in addition, of course, to the indirect effects, such as displaying our objection to predation, and proving that it is possible to live without eating animals; the objective being not just for individuals to choose one by one to opt out from the carnivorous system, but for meat to be abolished.
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Re: Does Vegetarianism Make a Difference?

Postby David Olivier on 2011-02-01T13:35:00

I see that the issue has already been discussed here.
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