But what about fairness?

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But what about fairness?

Postby spindoctor on 2011-06-09T10:40:00

So a common argument against utilitarianism is that the notion of utility does not take account of fairness and justice, values that are also very important to humans. What's the best response to this gambit?

(This arose in the Sam Harris thread, where it was argued that utility encompasses fairness because presunably a happier society is also a fairer one. But that seems unconvincing to me -- utilitarian principles might often result in a fairer society by happy accident, but there are many cases where u. will result in a happier but less fair outcome.)

Any thoughts?
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby yboris on 2011-06-09T15:00:00

My response may not be the best, but it seems on simple principle of economics ("law" of diminishing marginal utility) one could argue that when there is inequity, for those well-off it will cost less (utility-wise) to bring those worse-off up.

For purposes of illustration: in the extreme case, as we have in the world right now, a person in the US who foregoes buying a cup of coffee will get some disutility, but the $1-2 she saves, if given to the right charitable organization, will contribute to a large chunk (1/10?) of the cost of a vaccine that will in many cases (1/200?) prevent a death.
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby DanielLC on 2011-06-09T18:33:00

My response to justice is that, if it's good to punish evil people, than a world composed of evil people always hurting each other would logically be a utopia. I, for one, wouldn't want to live there.

I'm not sure how convincing that argument is. I no longer have any concept of justice, so I can't tell by how convincing it seems to me.

One argument about fairness is that it only makes sense if the lives are otherwise fair. For example, suppose Alice and Bob each have 1,000,000 +- 1,000 utilons. If you do something that is, on its own, unfair by one utilon, it has almost a 50% chance of making it more fair.

Also, I notice people are against fairness within a person. For example, people celebrate holidays. Is it really fair for the yous throughout the year to pay so that Dec. 25th!you can be happy?
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby David Olivier on 2011-06-15T16:08:00

I don't believe in personal identity (as a fundamental ethical entity) so I don't give any intrinsic value to fairness between different "persons".

Of course, fairness does have derived value in many ways, based on diminishing marginal utility, etc.

The issue pointed out by DanielLC about fairness over time for one "person" is interesting, because if in effect we don't need such fairness over time, we don't need fairness between persons either.

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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby Gee Joe on 2011-07-26T23:24:00

Fairness and justice are useful, utilitarians agree with fairness and justice as long as it raises net satisfaction. E.g. punishing criminals is good because it sets a precedent for those who may be thinking of committing a crime, lowering crime as a result.

Satisfaction is an every day life experience, a concept that anyone grasps easily, that everyone knows and strives for. Fairness, on the other hand, is a more abstract thought. We can do all sorts of ethical calculus with satisfaction, not so easily with fairness. What gets a more straightforward answer: "Are you satisfied with your life?" or "Do you think your life is fair?".

So why use for ethical reasoning one variable (satisfaction) and everything else be a function dependent on that variable (like in this case fairness or justice): Occam's razor. We can't universally resolve the dichotomy is-ought, the leap of faith between what is and what ought to be will still be done. But there's a greater leap of faith in saying we ought to strive for fairness, justice, and satisfaction, than in saying we ought to strive for satisfaction.
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby RyanCarey on 2011-07-26T23:34:00

It seems to me that we should raise the issue of instrumental values such as fairness and justice almost immediately when one asks us what utilitairanism is. An ideal explanation of utilitarianism, then, should say that utilitarianism is the idea that we should align all our behaviour towards spreading happiness and limiting suffering. We should alter what institutions we have, such as marriage, so as to satisfy most people. We should alter our laws, including all criminal law, to prevent crime and to facilitate rehabilitation. Any aspect of our law that does not help society, for example, such as purely retributive punishment, should be discarded. And then, we should cultivate values, such as justice and fairness in so far as this will help us build a society in which we cooperate for a common good.

A familiar example that seems to capture the idea is torture. Perhaps torture ought to be illegal even though it is not always immoral.
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby rehoot on 2011-07-27T03:38:00

Mike Retriever wrote: there's a greater leap of faith in saying we ought to strive for fairness, justice, and satisfaction, than in saying we ought to strive for satisfaction.


I agree. Rejecting traditional views of fairness is difficult for many people, but I think that our attachment to fairness is more complicated and problematic than striving for a utilitarian goal. People are tempted to think of ideas like "fairness" as if there is an "extrasomatic moral truth" (per Wilson and Ruse) that exists out there in the universe and that we can detect somehow. A more realistic understanding is that we observe things that we like and then try to infer what fairness means (which might work in general but is subject to the difficulties of induction). Scientifically, I think it would be unjustified for people to observe some events in a narrow domain; then infer that "fairness is always good" then apply that to situations outside the original domain (this is derived from a principle of statistics of time series data about sampling from one time domain and projecting into another). The problem is that in some extreme cases, imposing fairness is not good and the general rule fails (see my concocted example below--note that many hypothetical talk about fairness in the abstract without considering the cost of imposing it on an supermajority that opposes it).

If fairness is the goal and fairness contradicts a utilitarian conclusion, it is to say that there is some type of fairness that should be enforced even though there is another course of action that could lead to greater total utility. I think I would generally prefer the course of action that creates greater total utility with the understanding that we consider secondary effects of actions and the principle of impartial consideration. I also suspect that attempts to resolve problems of this type will lead to rationalization.

Let's say we are in the early part of the prior century in an imaginary version of the southern U.S. that is isolated from the rest of the country. Assume a town with only one Black person and a bunch of White people who dislike Blacks. The Whites don't want the Black person in the local restaurant. Some have claimed that fairness dictates that the Black person should be allowed to eat at the restaurant and some claim that utilitarianism says otherwise.

My gut feeling is that the Black person should be able to eat in the restaurant, but I am a product of the post-civil rights era. I also suspect that measuring the utility on each side is strongly subjective, but there might be some pragmatic basis for defending the counter-intuitional conclusion that the Black person should not be allowed to eat in the restaurant. If the White people dislike the Black person so much that there is a high expectation of physical harm to the Black person upon entering the restaurant, then in that imaginary town, it might be best to exclude that person in the interest of total utility. As the years pass and the percentage of Blacks increases and education helps to facilitate the cost of internalizing the ideas of integration, then we would reach the point where it would be a net gain to integrate the restaurant.

When thinking of these imaginary vignettes, it is easy to forget about the moral implications of an outside force that is enforcing fairness on the community. In my imaginary example, there simply would not exist any person or force in a position to impose fairness on the town. If you want to add an imaginary "fairness army" to the vignette, then proponents of fairness can find them selves in an even more ridiculous situation of passing a law enforcing fairness that results in the massacre of all the White people at the hands of the imaginary fairness army (assuming that the White people are so intrenched in their beliefs that they would rather go to war than let the Black person eat in the restaurant). That situation makes the utilitarian chose less objectionable.

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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby DanielLC on 2011-07-27T06:52:00

I think a more interesting case is when the unfairness is due to something people have no control over. For example, if there's one person who is allergic to X, should they make an X-free meal just for him, or just not have anything to feed him at the restaurant?
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby Ruairi on 2011-07-29T13:41:00

fairness and democracy are great when everyone who can suffer or feel happiness can vote
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby tog on 2011-07-30T06:35:00

I've tended to use a few different responses. One is basically the point about personal identity that David Olivier made. One is a version of a argument from the additivity of value by Michael Huemer - it's in a published paper with 'Egalitariaism' somewhere in the title, but I link to a free verson at http://www.philosofiles.com/node/40 and hope to add some thoughts on it in the comments there when I get time. Another goes something like this:

Imagine a universe with only two people in it, each of them on a desert island completely cut off from and unaware of the other. Suppose that they start off with the same number of tasty coconuts, but one of them gets more. If fairness were a basic, non-derived value, this would make that universe a worse place in some respect (even if one that is outweighed by other ways in which it becomes a better place). But this is counterintuitive, suggesting that our intuitive notion of fairness's value actually depends on the consequences that derive from it and depend on people actually being aware of and affected by other people's increases or decreases in fortune.

Are there are any criticisms or discussion of that argument that I'm not aware of? It seems a strong one to me, although I don't know how many believers in fairness or non-consequentialists I've convinced with it...
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby rehoot on 2011-07-30T08:37:00

tog: The link didn't work for me... wait, it points here: http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/equality.htm
That seems like a discussion of the present value of utility (future discounted utility).

[quote:tog]Imagine a universe with only two people in it, each of them on a desert island completely cut off from and unaware of the other...[/quote]

It is an interesting example, but their was no conscious agent delivering coconuts and choosing between the two recipients. Although some people might think it unfair that it rained on one side of town but not the other, I think that more people would have a different reaction when a rational agent chooses to give more coconuts to one versus the other. My gut feeling motivates me to blame a person for not being fair (although I argued against fairness in my first post above), but I don't blame the clouds for rain.

I think a system that supports equality of opportunity is generally (instrumentally) better than the alternatives because it allows people with low utility the possibility to increase it and might produce greater total utility. This sounds a bit like fairness, but not exactly.

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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby Gee Joe on 2011-07-30T13:07:00

tog wrote:Suppose that they start off with the same number of tasty coconuts, but one of them gets more. If fairness were a basic, non-derived value, this would make that universe a worse place in some respect (even if one that is outweighed by other ways in which it becomes a better place).


It wouldn't be a worse place per se, since the morally relevant issue is whether they would get any satisfaction from coconuts. You equate having different amounts of coconuts to morally bad or 'unfair' because you or those people place desire on that object. If we didn't care about coconuts you wouldn't think that's either fair or unfair. The root of your moral intuition is the coconut's desirability, the preference for coconuts.

Now imagine in your scenario one person is unable to enjoy his coconuts, e.g. he is allergic to coconut milk. He doesn't want coconuts. In that case I'd clearly say the 'unfair' or morally bad thing is that he received any coconuts altogether, all coconuts should have gone to the guy who can enjoy them.
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby tog on 2011-08-01T16:34:00

rehoot wrote:tog: The link didn't work for me... wait, it points here: http://home.sprynet.com/~owl1/equality.htm
That seems like a discussion of the present value of utility (future discounted utility).


Hmm, it's been a while since I read it, but iirc it has some lateral relevance to this issue...

Imagine a universe with only two people in it, each of them on a desert island completely cut off from and unaware of the other...

It is an interesting example, but their was no conscious agent delivering coconuts and choosing between the two recipients. Although some people might think it unfair that it rained on one side of town but not the other, I think that more people would have a different reaction when a rational agent chooses to give more coconuts to one versus the other. My gut feeling motivates me to blame a person for not being fair (although I argued against fairness in my first post above), but I don't blame the clouds for rain.


Interesting - that reaction implies there's no place for fairness in any consequentialist ethic (though I suppose you can always define 'an agent having been unfair' as a bad consequence... it feels like you cease to be a consequentialist in any meaningful sense then though).

Anyway, what if I modify my thought experiment to include a third, Godlike agent, whose happiness we're supposed to assume is constant and who has the choice between giving one of the people (call him Coco) extra coconuts, and leaving things exactly as they are with no one getting extra coconuts relative to the baseline? In that case I'd think giving the extra coconuts was the right thing to do, and would involve nothing bad (not even some bad 'unfairness' that was outweighed by Coco's extra happiness).

I think a system that supports equality of opportunity is generally (instrumentally) better than the alternatives because it allows people with low utility the possibility to increase it and might produce greater total utility. This sounds a bit like fairness, but not exactly.


I'm sure that's generally right in the real world but I think we should be forthright about not valuing fairness intrinsically as opposed to instrumentally.
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby tog on 2011-08-01T16:35:00

Mike Retriever wrote:
tog wrote:Suppose that they start off with the same number of tasty coconuts, but one of them gets more. If fairness were a basic, non-derived value, this would make that universe a worse place in some respect (even if one that is outweighed by other ways in which it becomes a better place).


It wouldn't be a worse place per se, since the morally relevant issue is whether they would get any satisfaction from coconuts. You equate having different amounts of coconuts to morally bad or 'unfair' because you or those people place desire on that object. If we didn't care about coconuts you wouldn't think that's either fair or unfair. The root of your moral intuition is the coconut's desirability, the preference for coconuts.

Now imagine in your scenario one person is unable to enjoy his coconuts, e.g. he is allergic to coconut milk. He doesn't want coconuts. In that case I'd clearly say the 'unfair' or morally bad thing is that he received any coconuts altogether, all coconuts should have gone to the guy who can enjoy them.


Of course - take it as read that they both enjoy each extra coconut, and do so equally.
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby rehoot on 2011-08-01T20:12:00

tog wrote:Interesting - that reaction implies there's no place for fairness in any consequentialist ethic (though I suppose you can always define 'an agent having been unfair' as a bad consequence... it feels like you cease to be a consequentialist in any meaningful sense then though).


An ethic that evaluates behaviors on "fairness" is not utilitarian. If somebody argues that a particular act should be performed due to the implications of fairness regardless of the other consequences, then I would not even call it consequentialist (I know that some have argued for consequentialist ethics based on justice and the like, but I don't buy it). In that case, "fairness" is an abstract ethic constructed and defined by human inferences and imagination and is more comparable to virtues than to consequences that have some basis for scientific evaluation. People who adopt that ethic might declare that there is no need to observe or even consider the consequences that affect real beings in the real world because their synthetic, a priori "knowledge" of fairness leads them to believe that they know the best course of action without observation (as in my discrimination example above in which fairness dictates one thing and empirical realty and utility demand another). Perhaps an ethic based on fairness could take the form of a duty-based or maybe a virtue ethic.. and consequentialists can contemplate fairness as they review a situation and look for relevant factors to consider, but reliance on "fairness" is not utilitarian.

My main post above argues that the idea of "fairness" is an abstraction that can lead to bad decisions even if it seems to work as a general rule in many cases. Stated another way, people observe that certain types of actions lead to greater happiness; they formulate a general rule about that, but the rule is a bit imprecises; then they apply the general rule to situations in which the rule does not lead to greater happiness. Some people come to believe the imprecise general rule and imagine that there is a metaphysical property of the universe that conforms to their inferences about behavior. That imaginary, metaphysical property is the "fairness" that we have been conditioned to love and honor since we were children--when we lacked the capacity to comprehensively and critically analyze its provenance and claims.

Also note that disposing of fairness does not mean that utilitarian conclusions differ from "fairness" intuitions for most of the stuff in daily life. Utilitarianism starts with the foundation of what led to "fairness" and adheres to that without taking mental short-cuts.

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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby rehoot on 2011-08-02T16:13:00

Exceptions to rules of fairness help to indicate the motivations for those rules in the first place. Consider the principle that it is morally wrong to discriminate against a person based on sex, age... when hiring. Now imagine the predicament of a manger of a large building (like an international airport or a Las Vegas casino) that has large restrooms that need to be open all the time. The best way to clean those restrooms might be to have somebody cleaning while they are open (and only occasionally closing them for cleaning). The smart manager will hire a male employee to clean the men's room and a female employee to clean the lady's room. If you think this is a valid exception to the principle of fairness, then your thinking is following utilitarian or consequentialist reasoning by looking to the consequences and not to some rule-of-thumb.

Now consider that you are the manager of a Las Vegas show that has 20 dancing girls, one of whom quits. The person who does the dance moves best is a 50 year-old, chubby man with hairy legs. Would you hire him and put him in the bikini like the other dancers or would you hire a female dancer? The smart manager will hire the less-qualified female dancer unless there is some market-driven demand to change the show to a comedy or to make a show that appeals to a small group of social activists. If you think that hiring the female dancer in the typical situation is a valid exception to the principle of fairness of hiring, then you agree with consequentialist or utilitarian reasoning.

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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby Gee Joe on 2011-08-02T16:46:00

I remember an exposition of Michael Sanders about the art of democratic debate where they discussed the 'fairness' of letting a disabled person use a golf cart to move from one hole to the next while playing golf. As golf enthusiasts argued, walking from hole to hole is also part of the game (tests your stamina, wears you out), and giving permission to the disabled person to use a golf cart would be giving him an unfair advantage. The fair solution: let the disabled person use a golf cart, and let anyone else do it as well if they desire. However this solution would have been even worse than letting only use a golf cart to the disabled person, because it calls into question the status of golf as an athletic sport. As it turned out, the golfing institutions didn't want to choose the fair solution because golfers liked it less.

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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby DanielLC on 2011-08-02T18:03:00

Would you hire him and put him in the bikini like the other dancers or would you hire a female dancer?


How is choosing a talented person any more fair than choosing an attractive person?
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Re: But what about fairness?

Postby rehoot on 2011-08-02T18:48:00

DanielLC wrote:
rehoot wrote:Would you hire him and put him in the bikini like the other dancers or would you hire a female dancer?


How is choosing a talented person any more fair than choosing an attractive person?


Some people adhere to the principle that it is unfair (morally wrong) to discriminate on the basis of race, gender, religion... From what I know of Rawls and the influential form of liberalism descendent from his ideas, many people believe this. As a general rule of thumb, I also agree with it (although I would say that I look more toward consequences and would follow consequences in many dilemmas). It is also the law in the U.S. My post is most relevant to people who would adopt that specific type of fairness and reject utilitarianism (or exist in an state of indecision between the two).

For those who build their system of ethics on "fairness" and reject the principle of utility, they have to add an increasing number of arbitrary exceptions and details to keep their ethical system in line with the decisions that they would actually make (related to Occam's razor and Popper's black swan example). I think in many situations, those same people actually look to consequences to resolve difficulties -- some of them procede to deny that the consequences matter and that their exceptions are part of some other metaphysical principle of fairness that they don't define clearly. From what I have seen so far, consequentialist ethics are simpler and better and more consistent in resolving dilemmas.

[edit... If you consider an ethical problem and keep searching for a different principle of fairness to fit the situation and fit your existing moral beliefs, then you might be practicing a hybrid type of intuitional ethics that is not legitimately driven by ethical principles (the link to principles would be a post-hoc rationalization). That sounds like a version of ethical pluralism or a version of Dancy's "no moral principles" idea, which is not easily defended (Dancy, J. (1983). Ethical pluralism and morally relevant properties. Mind, New Series, 92(368), 530–547)]

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