Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

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Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2011-10-09T13:45:00

Philosophy Bites has a fascinating interview with Jonathan Glover discussing his interviews with psychopathic patients.

An interesting feature of these people was that they didn't lack knowledge of ethics entirely -- for instance, they held that swearing, bullying, and damaging royal property were bad -- but they didn't have a sense of why these were bad, nor that bullying was worse than swearing because it hurt others. In general, the patients respected the authority of the Queen, the police, and the military, but they had no particular empathy toward suffering. They also believed that retribution was good.

This reminds me of bad strains of religious fundamentalism: Submission to authority (god), unconcern for the suffering of others, and support for punishment. Another connection is that the psychopaths almost uniformly were abused as children, and abuse occurs at higher-than-average rates in fundamentalist homes.

Addressing the issue could have value beyond the immediately visible benefits to society and to the patients themselves. I guess preventing abusive childhoods is one partial solution. Are there others?
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2011-10-09T16:27:00

Below are some sobering selections from one PsychForums discussion. Despite being alarmed by the participants, my heart goes out to them. I'm sure they suffer a lot in their own lives as well.

I have a secret phobia of water so I've fantasized about drowning people, or at least killing people and then disposing of their bodies in bodies of water such as lakes or ponds. There is something very disturbing about a body in water for me. My conscience does not kick in thinking about a little girl drowning but I can see why it would for you crystal. It would gross if I ever found a little dead girl floating in water but it would also fascinate me.

I have another instance where I realized I enjoyed the suffering of others, killing fish when I was a little kid, torturing them to death with hooks, knives, and fire was fun for me. I never treated my pets like that but wild animals were fair game. Also in elementary school I kicked one of my best friends in the crotch and I thought it was hilarious the way he dropped to the ground so quickly and almost threw up. I was ecstatically amused by that, I'm surprised he forgave me.

[...]

You know what, I actually used to torture my babysitter's cats. And in elementary school I kicked this older person I was bullying so hard in the balls he had to go to hospital

[...]

I have a new neighbor right now who is now on the verge of being fired from her job because of me I also trapped and re-homed her cat, she started harassing me within 30 minutes of their moving truck pulling up so she had it coming. Must feed the beast to keep it full and content reducing the risk of it attacking unprovoked.

[...]

You're entitled to your opinions and questions; but don't come into a safe zone for us to look at these things without judgement and condemnment, [...] because you'll just make the creatures in this forum very aggressive :twisted: you're kinda new here, which makes you fresh meat for the beasts- so... do you really wanna start off like this???

:D This is gonna be FUN!!!! !! :twisted:
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2011-10-16T05:01:00

Jesper pointed me to a paper written by a friend of his, which I've uploaded to my website to make it available: "Moderate bioconservatism and moral enhancement."

From our conversation:
Jesper: Re your felicifia-post on psychopaths, my friend Karim is working on papers about reducing risk through moral enhancement by embryonic screening of psychopath genes. I haven't read the paper below but thinks he discusses it there. It just struck my that such a policy would be even more important from your perspective, given the correctness of the assumption that psychopaths will be far more likely to create suffering sims.

Alan: Thanks! [...] It brings to mind this article, which I found via Dave Pearce. Reducing existential risk exclusively through the means of enhancing [utilitarian-inclined] empathy might be something I could get behind. :)
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Gee Joe on 2011-10-16T11:09:00

"To illustrate his point, at a recent appearance at TED Edinburgh, Zak spritzed the backstage staff with oxytocin, prompting a spontaneous outbreak of group hugging."

Oh My God. This is worse than a furry convention. That makes me feel totally awkward, spontaneous group hug between strangers induced by a hormone. Awesomely creepy!
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Gedusa on 2011-11-02T19:49:00

Thanks Alan! You once again sent me to one of the worst places on the Internet :0

But seriously. I vaguely remember seeing something saying this sort thing might be genetic (partially). Technically, the "abusive childhood" hypothesis isn't the only one that fits the data. Genes could make sure psychopathic parents had psychopathic kids - which they beat for the fun of it. Selecting against psychopaths seems best.

Yes! Moral enhancement is an excellent idea, and one I could certainly get behind. I shall be certain to read the paper.
World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-01-27T00:13:00

Stanford's Robert Sapolsky on the neuroscience of aggression, impulse-control, empathy and morality:

Part 1 (forward to 52:18): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYmarGO5jM
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLE71i4JJiM
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtVfoIkVSu8
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqP4_4kr7-0
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-01-28T17:48:00

Thanks, HT! Is it just coincidence that I started watching Robert Sapolsky videos on YouTube recently as well?

I also like his book chapter, "Circling the Blanket for God," on religion and OCD.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-01-29T18:40:00

I think it's a coincidence. I searched for generally interesting lecture series online and found his to be very worthwhile. Before that, I had only seen one of his talks via TED (about how humans are different from other primates).

He makes an interesting point about sociopaths in the Aggression III video at 41:45, claiming that they (or some of them?) have a high threshold for pain experience, resulting in reduced empathy. If this is indeed a linear correlation that cannot be easily broken apart, then any enhancement to reduce pain in humans could reduce empathy as well, and any enhancement in empathy could increase pain sensitivity. Certainly not a welcome side-effect. Ideally, what you want is empathetic rational humans who suffer only rarely or not intensely.
"The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it... Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient."

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-01-29T23:16:00

Hedonic Treader wrote:claiming that they (or some of them?) have a high threshold for pain experience, resulting in reduced empathy. If this is indeed a linear correlation that cannot be easily broken apart, then any enhancement to reduce pain in humans could reduce empathy as well, and any enhancement in empathy could increase pain sensitivity.

Fascinating. Sounds rather plausible.

Here's a copy of a post I wrote on the Old Felicifia. I extracted the text from the archive of old diaries that Seth Baum gave me.
Less Suffering, Less Empathy?
by: Brian Tomasik
Wed Nov 07, 2007 at 17:45:43 PM UTC

From personal experience I know that I tend to care most about the suffering of others after experiencing painful events myself. When I go for long periods of time without feeling much pain, my motivations can drift away from suffering toward other concerns (including non-utilitarian ones). I'm often less concerned about making sure that my actions strictly maximize expected value when I'm in a euthymic state.

As human lives become increasingly comfortable, and as--perhaps--society becomes more accepting of mood-enhancing drugs, is there a danger that people will generally become less concerned about the suffering of those who still endure significant amounts of pain (most notably wild animals and, possibly, insects)?

Are there studies (or anecdotal accounts) of whether people become more empathetic after painful experiences? Is the correlation between empathy and euthymia positive or negative? Perhaps one could argue that, even if depressed people are more concerned about the suffering of others, non-depressed people are more likely to actually do something about it? [Cf. the saying, "Pessimists are more accurate, but optimists get more done."]

A related concern is whether improvements in mood would cause people to become less rational regarding factual beliefs. The evidence on depressive realism is mixed, and even if true, the finding relates mainly to beliefs about one's own abilities. Moreover, correlation doesn't prove causation--who wouldn't become more depressed as a result of accurately viewing the world? :) Still, it seems plausible that people in good moods will be more prone to optimism bias, valence effects, and wishful thinking. This is obviously of concern regarding how good we think the post-human future will be, as well as other areas.

At least two of my animal-activist friends said they have experienced intense physical pain in their lives, and I think this has contributed to where they are today. I, too, had significant physical pain for several years. When I was 15, I developed -- for some reason that still remains unknown -- a condition called esophagitis. When I ate, I felt immediately full and nauseous, although I never actually vomited. For 2-3 hours after eating, in fact, the pain was so bad that I paced around my room, squeezing my chair, and waiting for the feeling to subside.

After a few episodes of this, I learned not to eat at all. I managed to eat one oyster cracker or spoonful of cereal every hour throughout the day, but that was all I could stomach; even drinking more than a few sips of water was painful. This continued for ~2-3 months. I had lost an ordinary sense of hunger, but I was weak and unable to do much of anything besides reading or watching TV.

Eventually my gastroenterologist identified my esophagitis via endoscopy and prescribed Nexium. This helped a lot, and eventually I returned to being able to eat small amounts. However, esophageal irritation continued after meals for 4-5 years afterward, although it was worst the first 1-2 years following my initial recovery. I dreaded car trips, because they were typically hours on end of waiting, waiting, waiting for the agony to stop.

In the last ~4 years, esophageal irritation has gone away completely. My life is currently as pain-free as ever, and I'm as happy as I can ever remember being. Yet my empathy has not waned (I don't think). This is a hopeful partial reply to the hypothesis of an inherent pain-empathy link. One reason that I still care even though I'm not in pain may be that I'm so wrapped up in projects like Felicifia and working with animal activists on a regular basis. Doing things to help others doesn't require special effort; it's just a part of life that I take for granted. Perhaps pain-inspired empathy would be more important if this kind of work required a big shift in my life plans.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-01-30T20:52:00

Alan Dawrst wrote:One reason that I still care even though I'm not in pain may be that I'm so wrapped up in projects like Felicifia and working with animal activists on a regular basis. Doing things to help others doesn't require special effort; it's just a part of life that I take for granted.

Yes, habituation effects are very probably a real factor; the question then becomes how to habituate people to do efficient things rather than symbolic things, countering scope insensitivity etc. And of course, the original motivation to habituate has to bootstrap somehow. I also agree that being overly depressed isn't helpful to get things done.

Sorry to hear about your suffering earlier in life.
"The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it... Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient."

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-01-31T18:09:00

Hedonic Treader wrote:Sorry to hear about your suffering earlier in life.

The physical suffering was probably worse than what 80-90% of my peers in school had ever gone through up to that point in their lives. Now that fraction is probably lower (maybe 70%?). For example, I'm guessing childbirth would be worse than anything I've ever experienced.

Extending worldwide, the percentage who have experienced less physical pain than I have might be medium-to-low. And extending animal-kingdom-wide, maybe even lower.

Plus, I was fortunate that the pain of esophagitis was only physical. During those worst years, I was never depressed on account of it.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-02-16T06:31:00

Another related quote from a different Sapolsky video.
And, very interestingly, this part of the brain [for feeling pain and empathy] is hyperactive in people with major clinical depression, people who are pathologically feeling the pains of everything. And fascinatingly, there's a neurotransmitter called substance P, and substance P has a whole lot to do with anterior cingulate function, and it's got something to do with pain pathways, and everybody's know this for centuries, and there are drugs which will block the action of substance P, and they often have antidepressant action.

The whole 12 minutes and 33 seconds of the video are great, by the way. :)
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Daniel Dorado on 2012-02-16T15:25:00

I broke my leg when I was around 10. I can't remember the physical pain, but I can remember that I suffered it in the accident and rehabilitation. But I don't think that experience hasn't influenced my interest in avoid animal suffering.

On the other hand, most of the animal advocates that I know suffered mild or extreme emotional pain when they were young. I know at least three vegans or vegetarians who were raped before they changed their eating habits. I think it's very likely a relationship between emotional pain and an interest in avoid animal or human suffering.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Pat on 2012-03-02T07:58:00

That people who suffer more are more empathetic is an interesting hypothesis. It would be pretty easy to match a few dozen people with chronic pain to a few dozen controls and give them a personality test. I guess this hasn't been done, though.

I have a form of arthritis called ankylosing spondylitis. It caused pain and stiffness in my hips and back for several years. Now I'm on a medication and have virtually zero pain. It might have been edifying to have some days with a negative hedonic balance. Perhaps primed me to believe that, e.g., the prancing deer and smiling dolphins might not be so happy after all. You can remind yourself that there's a lot of suffering in the world by watching videos of it, but that's voluntary and aversive, so you're not likely to do it. Having pain yourself is more visceral, and you can't look away.

The most motivated civil-rights activists were black, and the most motivated women's-rights activists were women, so maybe experiencing something bad yourself motivates you to fix it. Of course, the demographic makeup of civil- and women's-rights activists could be explained equally well by self-interest. Honestly, I have no idea whether my condition had any effect on my ethical beliefs or actions.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-03-03T21:43:00

Thanks, Pat!

Pat wrote:Perhaps primed me to believe that, e.g., the prancing deer and smiling dolphins might not be so happy after all.

Yes. We project our emotional states onto those we see. This is part of the reason I worry that we well-fed, safe, healthy humans in comfortable temperature-controlled houses under-appreciate the amount of suffering in the wild. (The other main reason being that most animals have short lifespans and are more r-selected than humans.)

Pat wrote:You can remind yourself that there's a lot of suffering in the world by watching videos of it, but that's voluntary and aversive, so you're not likely to do it.

Moreover, because we project our past/present emotions onto what we see, we might not realize how bad the things in the video really are. I remember being a young kid -- before I had experienced much pain that I could remember -- watching a video of people being decapitated, and I thought nothing of it. It wasn't much different watching the head fall off the body than watching a rock fall off a cliff. Similarly, I used to watch tons of nature shows (like ~1-2 hours per week for several years) but never thought about the agony endured by the prey. I just enjoyed the excitement of the chase, as though I was watching a video game.

Pat wrote:Of course, the demographic makeup of civil- and women's-rights activists could be explained equally well by self-interest.

Well, not personal self-interest. The effort and risk required to participate in those movements was high, while the expected benefits of an individual's contribution at the margin was minuscule. It could have been in the self-interest of the group as a whole, though. :)

In general, any political participation is almost never in one's individual self-interest.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-03-25T07:05:00

A post on Robert Wiblin's blog pointed to a fascinating paper by Bryan Caplan: "The Totalitarian Threat." Below are some quotes from the paper that I found worth sharing.

The connection between totalitarian goals and totalitarian methods is straightforward. People do not want to radically change their behavior. To make them change anyway requires credible threats of harsh punishment – and the main way to make such threats credible is to carry them out on a massive scale. (p. 1)


But despite historians' focus on Russia and Germany, Maoist China was actually responsible for more civilian killings than the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany put together. Modern estimates put its death toll at 65 million. (Margolin 1999a) The West is primarily familiar with the cruelties inflicted on Chinese intellectuals and Party members during the Cultural Revolution, but its death toll was probably under 1 million. The greatest of Mao's atrocities was the Great Leap Forward, which claimed 30 million lives through man-made starvation. (Becker 1996) (p. 3)


For goals that can be achieved by brute force or mobilizing resources, totalitarian methods have proven highly effective. For example, Stalin was able to develop nuclear weapons with amazing speed simply by making this the overarching priority of the Soviet economy. (Holloway 1994) (p. 4)


It is tempting for Westerners to argue that the Soviet Union and Maoist China changed course because their systems proved unworkable, but this is fundamentally incorrect. These systems were most stable when their performance was worst. Communist rule was very secure when Stalin and Mao were starving millions to death. Conditions were comparatively good when reforms began. Totalitarianism ended not because totalitarian policies were unaffordable, but because new leaders were unwilling to keep paying the price in lives and wealth. (p. 7)


Totalitarianism would be much more stable if there were no non-totalitarian world. The worse-case scenario for human freedom would be a global totalitarian state. Without an outside world for comparison, totalitarian elites would have no direct evidence that any better way of life was on the menu. It would no longer be possible to borrow new ideas from the non-totalitarian world, but it would also no longer be necessary. The global government could economically and scientifically stagnate without falling behind. (p. 9)

Maybe scientific stagnation wouldn't be so bad on balance, if it would prevent a Singularity and attendant explosion of computational power that could be used to create orders of magnitude more suffering. However, if the totalitarian state eventually did develop AGI, the situation would get very dire. :(


In Orwell's 1984, one of the few scientific questions still being researched is "how to discover, against his will, what another human being is thinking." (1983: 159) Advances in brain research and related fields have the potential to do just this. Brain scans, for example, might one day be used to screen closet skeptics out of the party. Alternately, the new and improved psychiatric drugs of the future might increase docility without noticeably reducing productivity. (pp. 11-12)


At the same time, it should be acknowledged that some of these technologies might lead totalitarianism to be less violent than it was historically. Suppose psychiatric drugs or genetic engineering created a docile, homogeneous population. Totalitarian ambitions could then be realized without extreme brutality, because people would want to do what their government asked – a possibility explored at length in the dystopian novel Brave New World. (Huxley 1996) (p. 13)

This is a comforting thought. :)


How seriously do I take the possibility that a world totalitarian government will emerge during the next one thousand years and last for a thousand years or more? Despite the complexity and guesswork inherent in answering this question, I will hazard a response. My unconditional probability – i.e., the probability I assign given all the information I now have - is 5%. (p. 20)


(pp. 20-21) Finally, it is tempting to minimize the harm of a social disaster like totalitarianism, because it would probably not lead to human extinction. Even in Cambodia, the totalitarian regime with the highest death rate per-capita, 75% of the population remained alive after three years of rule by the Khmer Rouge. (Margolin 1999b) But perhaps an eternity of totalitarianism would be worse than extinction. It is hard to read Orwell and not to wonder:
Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress towards more pain. (1983: 220)

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Akeron on 2012-03-29T20:58:00

No offense, but I don't see this thread hitting the nail anywhere close to square on the head.

Psychopathy is not just about emotions. It's also possible for people to be emotionally different, but not anti-social. The problem is when people let their emotions get out of control by believing it's OK to force others to endure them.

The thread also only looks at extreme examples of psychopathy, and society gets away with this tremendously. It tolerates bullying, mocking, and teasing, labeling the victim as psychopathic when acting out after provoked.

The real problem in such an instance is the victim is being tortured by psychopaths, but because psychopaths aren't acting out strongly enough, society doesn't care. It only cares about the provoked victim retaliating, especially when the victim can't communicate why things happened because of intimidation.

It's with no surprise that psychopaths approve of retribution. Their goal is to get people in trouble, and they want the excuse to harm others when affected.

This is one of the reasons I can't embrace utilitarianism at all. A utilitarian solution to the above would involve institutionalizing victims, not psychopaths.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Akeron on 2012-03-29T21:06:00

Also with regards to China, Maoism isn't the first time this happened.

Over 2,000 years before Maoism, there was another ideology called legalism, and it was concocted by a victim of psychopathy just as I described above. Han Fei was sick and tired of corruption, so he designed a system of harsh punishment meant to PREVENT psychopaths from achieving power through secrecy.

The system immensely backfired, and for centuries, China was locked in civil war among dynasties competing for the mandate of heaven.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-03-30T04:10:00

Thanks, Akeron. Alas, I'm afraid I don't understand your first reply. Perhaps an example would help illustrate what you mean? What types of people are victims? Surely society cares about violence against victims at least when those victims have high socioeconomic status?
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Akeron on 2012-03-30T14:36:00

Alan Dawrst wrote:Thanks, Akeron. Alas, I'm afraid I don't understand your first reply. Perhaps an example would help illustrate what you mean? What types of people are victims? Surely society cares about violence against victims at least when those victims have high socioeconomic status?


Are you saying elite psychopaths should be able to abuse the populace at will?

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby rehoot on 2012-03-30T20:11:00

Akeron wrote:Psychopathy is not just about emotions. It's also possible for people to be emotionally different, but not anti-social. The problem is when people let their emotions get out of control by believing it's OK to force others to endure them.

The thread also only looks at extreme examples of psychopathy, and society gets away with this tremendously. It tolerates bullying, mocking, and teasing, labeling the victim as psychopathic when acting out after provoked.


The first paragraph in the quote above makes several claims. I would agree that people can be emotionally different and not anti-social, and that problem can be caused when people "let their emotions get out of control."

The last part of the first paragraph in the quote is a claim that the cause of the problems stems from a belief about forcing other people to do things. The second paragraph makes another claim that the cause of the problem stems from people being provoked. These things might be associated with problems, but they are not diagnostic of psychopathy.

Psychopathy is a clinical diagnosis made by psychologists, although the media might stretch the meaning of the word. The main components of psychopathy are a lack of empathy for others and lack of self control characterized by impulsive acts that harm others. You can read a bit about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy. Other studies have proposed a more detailed view: Antisocial Behavior, Impulsive Thrill-Seeking, Interpersonal Manipulation, and Cold Affect.

When the signs of psychopathy are not extreme in young people, the diagnosis might be conduct disorder, meaning that psychopathy is relative extreme by definition.

What you described are examples of real events that do happen, but the explanation of the causes describe something different than the characteristics that uniquely identify true psychopaths. That is not to say that psychopaths do not react when they feel slighted (they do) but others might react strongly in a similar situation without being psychopaths. The psychopath is much more likely to go on a killing rampage because of the combination of attributes that characterize psychopaths.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-03-31T03:10:00

Akeron wrote:Are you saying elite psychopaths should be able to abuse the populace at will?

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. :) I was responding to the statement that "The real problem in such an instance is the victim is being tortured by psychopaths, but because psychopaths aren't acting out strongly enough, society doesn't care." I was suggesting that society empirically does seem to care when people are victimized by psychopaths. In order to weaken my claim, I suggested that this is at least true when the victims are well off, to avert criticism that, in fact, many people don't care too much when gang members kill each other, or when poor women are raped. Of course, I think we should care about those victims as well, and society certainly professes to do so, but in practice, the distribution of social resources and media attention suggest otherwise.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Akeron on 2012-03-31T18:10:00

Alan Dawrst wrote:Sorry, I wasn't very clear. :) I was responding to the statement that "The real problem in such an instance is the victim is being tortured by psychopaths, but because psychopaths aren't acting out strongly enough, society doesn't care." I was suggesting that society empirically does seem to care when people are victimized by psychopaths. In order to weaken my claim, I suggested that this is at least true when the victims are well off, to avert criticism that, in fact, many people don't care too much when gang members kill each other, or when poor women are raped. Of course, I think we should care about those victims as well, and society certainly professes to do so, but in practice, the distribution of social resources and media attention suggest otherwise.


OK, but you're not suggesting a solution. How can society prevent psychopaths targeting non-elites?

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Akeron on 2012-03-31T18:13:00

rehoot wrote:What you described are examples of real events that do happen, but the explanation of the causes describe something different than the characteristics that uniquely identify true psychopaths. That is not to say that psychopaths do not react when they feel slighted (they do) but others might react strongly in a similar situation without being psychopaths. The psychopath is much more likely to go on a killing rampage because of the combination of attributes that characterize psychopaths.


Right, I agree.

The problem is we shouldn't need professionals defining what's "anti-social". We're all members of society.

In turn, psychopaths provoking victims into appearing psychopathic becomes a problem.

Unless we put psychologists in charge of everything (which is very dissociating), I don't see how psychology helps.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Akeron on 2012-04-06T12:34:00

I feel like you guys are dodging the question now out of awkwardness.

When it comes to public policy, keeping your mouth shut is coercive because you're expecting people to uphold a social contract they don't necessarily understand.

Not cool.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby kwai4749 on 2012-04-16T09:49:00

That makes me feel totally awkward.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-04-16T10:24:00

kwai4749 wrote:That makes me feel totally awkward.

Wow, spambots have gotten to the point of saying they feel awkward in the right contexts. Of course, they don't actually feel awkward (and probably won't for several more decades).

I often wonder what the purpose is of these posts that don't try to link to another website. Is the plan to make a few legitimate-seeming posts first before trying to sell something? For example, some forums require that a user make X posts before s/he can share any hyperlinks. Another possibility is that the spambot wants you to send it an email so that it can spam your email address? I have no idea, really.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Arepo on 2012-04-16T10:36:00

I've wondered the same, but I've never seen a repeat visit from a spambot (under the same account name). Occasionally they post more than once, but they're always in quick succession.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-05-20T09:02:00

George Dvorsky has several interesting blog posts on sociopathy and its future:

http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/201 ... -less.html
http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/201 ... opath.html
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Arepo on 2012-05-22T13:22:00

Alan Dawrst wrote:I often wonder what the purpose is of these posts that don't try to link to another website. Is the plan to make a few legitimate-seeming posts first before trying to sell something? For example, some forums require that a user make X posts before s/he can share any hyperlinks. Another possibility is that the spambot wants you to send it an email so that it can spam your email address? I have no idea, really.


Hey, has it edited in those links since you wrote that comment? If so...
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-05-23T07:21:00

I came across the song "Little Piece of Heaven" (lyrics), which is one of a plenitude of utterly disgusting songs. (I don't recommend watching the video.)

I know there's a lot of discussion about whether violence in entertainment leads to violence in real life, with arguments going both ways. Still, I find it sort of odd that authorities don't even think twice about people listening to these kinds of things, while at the same time we regard it as thoroughly tragic (and even traumatic) when they happen in real life. Ted Bundy is often regarded as essentially evil incarnate. Are people really that good at separating make-believe from the real world?

Related -- "Wanted: a sensible explanation of why parents don't want kids exposed to sex but violence is okay":
Working at a national video game retailer I had to deal with this all the time.

"Ma'am, I'm required to let you know that this game is rated M for mature for violence, blood and gore, alcohol, drug use, simulated gambling-"
"Yeah, yeah, yeah."
"- and partial nudity."
"WHAT?!"
"Partial nudity."
"OH HELL NO!"

My explaining to them that "partial nudity" means girls in bikinis typically didn't change their minds. They didn't want their sweet innocent snookums exposed to a tit: Pulverized whores are OK, as long as they're clothed.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-05-23T07:26:00

Arepo wrote:Hey, has it edited in those links since you wrote that comment?

Why yes it has! pwned.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-07-30T05:39:00

A sickening story:
A 16-year-old girl was buried alive by relatives in southeastern Turkey in a gruesome honor killing carried out because she reportedly befriended boys, the Anatolia news agency reported Thursday. [...]

A subsequent postmortem examination revealed that M.M. had a significant amount of soil in her lungs and stomach, indicating that she was buried alive and conscious, forensic experts told the news agency. “The autopsy result is blood-curdling. According to our findings, the girl – who had no bruises on her body and no sign of narcotics or poison in her blood – was alive and fully conscious when she was buried,” one anonymous expert said. [...]

Police had found the body of the girl using an anonymous tip saying that M.M. had been killed based on a decision by a family council and buried under the chicken pen, daily Milliyet reported. [...]

Family councils consist of family elders; honor killings are usually decided by such groups.

I find it remarkable how different cultures/subcultures within the same species (humans) can have such different dynamics for responding to internal conflicts. If this had happened to, say, the daughter of Jimmy Carter, the response would have been a world apart. (Setting aside the fact that what the girl did wasn't even wrong.) Perhaps some of these differences are genetic, but probably many are cultural and developmental.

"Emergence of a Peaceful Culture in Wild Baboons":
Primates exhibit a wide range of behaviors, not just among species but also among populations and even individuals. Yet the nature versus nurture debate still rages, particularly when it comes to understanding the roots of aggression. While bonobos are famous for using sex to resolve disputes, aggression is far more common in most primate species—again humans included. Our closest relative, the chimpanzee, has a reputation for being among the most belligerent, with rhesus monkeys and baboons not far behind. [...]

Primatologists characterize these behavioral differences as “cultural” traits, since they arise independent of genetic or environmental factors and are not only shared by a population (though not necessarily a species) but are also passed on to succeeding generations. [...]

In his book A Primate's Memoir, Sapolsky studied the activities and lifestyle of the Forest Troop to explore the relationship between stress and disease. In typical baboon fashion, the males behaved badly, angling either to assume or maintain dominance with higher ranking males or engaging in bloody battles with lower ranking males, which often tried to overthrow the top baboon by striking tentative alliances with fellow underlings. Females were often harassed and attacked. Internecine feuds were routine. Through a heartbreaking twist of fate, the most aggressive males in the Forest Troop were wiped out. The males, which had taken to foraging in an open garbage pit adjacent to a tourist lodge, had contracted bovine tuberculosis, and most died between 1983 and 1986. Their deaths drastically changed the gender composition of the troop, more than doubling the ratio of females to males, and by 1986 troop behavior had changed considerably as well; males were significantly less aggressive.

After the deaths, Sapolsky stopped observing the Forest Troop until 1993. Surprisingly, even though no adult males from the 1983–1986 period remained in the Forest Troop in 1993 (males migrate after puberty), the new males exhibited the less aggressive behavior of their predecessors. Around this time, Sapolsky and Share also began observing another troop, called the Talek Troop. The Talek Troop, along with the pre-TB Forest Troop, served as controls for comparing the behavior of the post-1993 Forest Troop. The authors found that while in some respects male to male dominance behaviors and patterns of aggression were similar in both the Forest and control troops, there were differences that significantly reduced stress for low ranking males, which were far better tolerated by dominant males than were their counterparts in the control troops. The males in the Forest Troop also displayed more grooming behavior, an activity that's decidedly less stressful than fighting. Analyzing blood samples from the different troops, Sapolsky and Share found that the Forest Troop males lacked the distinctive physiological markers of stress, such as elevated levels of stress-induced hormones, seen in the control troops.

In light of these observations, the authors investigated various models that might explain how the Forest Troop preserved this (relatively) peaceful lifestyle, complete with underlying physiological changes. One model suggests that nonhuman primates acquire cultural traits through observation. Young chimps may learn how to crack nuts with stones by watching their elders, for example. In this case, the young baboon transplants might learn that it pays to be nice by watching the interactions of older males in their new troop. Or it could be that proximity to such behavior increases the likelihood that the new males will adopt the behavior. Yet another explanation could be that males in troops with such a high proportion of females become less aggressive because they don't need to fight as much for female attention and are perhaps rewarded for good behavior. But it could be that the females had a more direct impact: new male transfers in the Forest Troop were far better received by resident females than new males in the other troops.

Sapolsky and Share conclude that the method of transmission is likely either one or a combination of these models, though teasing out the mechanisms for such complex behaviors will require future study. But if aggressive behavior in baboons does have a cultural rather than a biological foundation, perhaps there's hope for us as well.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-02T15:18:00

"'Sociopathic' animal killer to be released on probation":
Bourque pleaded guilty in October to killing or injuring an animal, causing unnecessary suffering and pain to an animal and possessing a knife and was arrested earlier this year. [...]

While living in residence last March, she told another student she had disembowelled and dismembered cats in the Prince George area and that she fantasized about getting a gun and shooting a homeless person. [...]

Police also found video clips depicting her killing and hanging the family dog.

"She narrated part of the video as she eviscerated the dog," MacLean said.

Another video depicted Bourque torturing the family's cat.

"It is clear the animals would have suffered significantly prior to their deaths."

The Crown stayed separate charges of possession of child pornography. Several psychologists have interviewed Bourque, who shows no remorse or insight into her crimes and nature.

"While intelligent and articulate," MacLean said. "She had a preoccupation for causing pain."
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-12-03T08:19:00

"'Sociopathic' animal killer to be released on probation"

Thanks for sharing. As gruesome as the descriptions are, the social and legal responses actually look good. That is makes media headlines also is a good sign - it means people care and it happens only rarely. "Three pigs tortured for meat production!" is not something you will see in the headlines.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-03T12:49:00

All great points, Hedonic Treader!

The unstated subtext for this post (and this whole thread) is to highlight the possibility for really deranged behavior by intelligent minds. If dolorium is way worse than conventional suffering produced by evolution, then sociopathy could be one of the biggest fears for utilitarians as regards the future. (Things like warfare look even worse, but maybe sociopathy isn't trivial.)
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-12-03T13:26:00

Luckily, dolorium is quite an abstract concept that may not trigger ordinary sadistic or violent impulses. At the very least, it is improbable that large quantities trigger them linearly stronger than smaller quantities. For instance, sexual sadism probably requires personal attention space with the typical display of pain, fear, disgust etc. It is relatively unlikely that a particularly powerful post-singularity sexual sadist would multiply the number of their victims with something like 10^6, while it is entirely realistic that a particularly powerful utilitarian would do the same for pleasure.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-04T03:21:00

Let's hope this is true. Most sadists probably prefer to see their victims squirm rather than know abstractly that their victims are running a maximally efficient pain algorithm. Still, I bet some would go for dolorium just for the lulz, and maybe it would become fashionable. :(

Wars are more troubling because there dolorium would be optimal. Indeed, if you think about it, the worst possible thing a human can experience today is torture by another human.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-12-04T07:14:00

It could become fashionable for a subset of individuals in a world in which people don't have the power to monitor and stop each other's actions. The story The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect depicts such a world: Humans cannot hurt each other without consent, and they can't die at all, but non-humans are fair game and each human gets enormous resources to create whatever they want. The story describes how factory farms vanish but many new planets with wild animals come into being, and some humans sometimes torture animals as a part of entertainment (the story mostly depicts consensual violence between humans).

I think it would look different if people could interfere with each other. So we have laws against animal cruelty, even though they are far from perfect. And all of that could go out the window if self-modification technologies allow people to switch off empathy, which is already relatively weak. If there turns out to be some good reason to do that, this could do a lot of additional harm.

I think for most current people, neither hedonium nor dolorium would be on the wish list for a post-Singularity world. There would probably be some hell worlds, but most of them would not be optimized to create absolute maximum suffering. There would probably be aesthetic or narrative elements that decrease efficiency considerably. OTOH, I would predict the same for the pleasure side. There would be paradises but not many hedonium clusters.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-05T02:27:00

Hedonic Treader wrote:but non-humans are fair game and each human gets enormous resources to create whatever they want. The story describes how factory farms vanish but many new planets with wild animals come into being

No way! :) I had no idea there was already a novel depicting my concern about this possibility.

In practice, I assume most sentient simulations would arise from industrial or scientific applications, but hobbyists could run them too.

Hedonic Treader wrote:allow people to switch off empathy, which is already relatively weak. If there turns out to be some good reason to do that, this could do a lot of additional harm.

If empathy is an accident in which predictive brain regions bleed over into self-feeling brain regions, then it might indeed be adaptive to eliminate empathy. In most cases, empathy drags you down. For example, few predators feel empathy for their prey. The main case in which empathy might be useful is when interacting with peers who have similar power as you do, so that you can establish trusting relationships. Empathy for those weaker than you is an unfortunate side-effect as far as survival is concerned.

Hedonic Treader wrote:OTOH, I would predict the same for the pleasure side. There would be paradises but not many hedonium clusters.

Yes, 'tis sad.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-12-05T05:15:00

Brian Tomasik wrote:No way! :) I had no idea there was already a novel depicting my concern about this possibility.

I thought the same. :)

But it's not the central focus of the story, it's just mentioned as an aside. It briefly brushes the ethics of factory farming and hunting, but not of allowing wild animals to eat each other. Then again, the story is a bit older. Speciesism in the ethical core of a foom AI is mentioned explicitly, as are unintended consequences. What I dislike is the subtext of the Experience Machine rejection ("it's not real"), and the reader is expected to believe that for some reason, intelligent characters with god-like powers don't manage to break the hedonic treadmill in 600 years, or come up with the motivation to do so, even though some of them are bored and unhappy.

The main case in which empathy might be useful is when interacting with peers who have similar power as you do, so that you can establish trusting relationships. Empathy for those weaker than you is an unfortunate side-effect as far as survival is concerned.

I think reciprocal altruism and credible signaling are strong causes, but I suspect the original main cause was kin selection. Even the way some of my friends treat their cute pets falls into the "nursing fixed action pattern" category. The hypothesis that empathy bleeds over from predictive faculties also seems plausible; that part probably doesn't have a big future.

I think the big question from here is, will empathy be self-maintaining because we cognitively feel empathy with the potential victims of imagined future non-empathy? In addition, of course, to the question whether it will have an ongoing function that is positively selected. (I could imagine that, in an era of brain simulations that can copy themselves, empathy with other me-copies could be a form of quasi-altruism for egoists)
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-05T21:17:00

Hedonic Treader wrote:Speciesism in the ethical core of a foom AI is mentioned explicitly, as are unintended consequences.

What are those consequences in the story? You said factory farms vanish.

Hedonic Treader wrote:I could imagine that, in an era of brain simulations that can copy themselves, empathy with other me-copies could be a form of quasi-altruism for egoists

Yeah, but it'll still be only a small degree of altruism, similar to kin altruism or at best tribe altruism. It won't help vast numbers of weak, suffering minds who stand at the mercy of a few powerful ones.

Aside: This is another great discussion, Hedonic Treader! It's rare to find someone who has so many insights as you do about the the futurism of happiness and suffering.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-12-06T18:03:00

Brian Tomasik wrote:
Hedonic Treader wrote:Speciesism in the ethical core of a foom AI is mentioned explicitly, as are unintended consequences.

What are those consequences in the story? You said factory farms vanish.

***Spoiler***
The consequences are very extensive because the AI has quantum mechanical control over the whole universe (it exploits a fictional QM effect that can scan and manipulate matter FTL). Some unintended are:
- people can't die even if they want to, which upsets many of them
- intelligent and unintelligent aliens and existing non-human animals are killed everywhere
- reality is replaced with a more efficient cyberspace that gives all humans what they want, but the reality fragmentation and loss of 'realness' upsets many of them - basically a non-consensual Experience Machine
- non-human animals aren't protected ethically, humans can instantiate, torture and kill them
- there are simulations of humans and non-human structures for human entertainment, but it's hinted that they don't suffer (at least not the humans)
- the system gathers entropy and the computer finally crashes over a confusion in the definition of 'human' and freezing of corresponding ethical subroutines

The story is one of those "Asimov's Laws of Robotics gone wrong" stories. What shocked me was how aversive the tone was to Experience Machine utopia. Apparently you can give paradise to people and they long for the stone age. This is not just the depicted bias of a few characters, but I think it sets the tone in many pieces of fiction. This culture hints to the prevalence of status quo bias and the acceptance of 'natural' suffering over 'unnatural' happiness. I hope this falls away if and when humans actually gain more control over the universe.

***End of spoiler (the spoiler tag somehow didn't work)***

Hedonic Treader wrote:I could imagine that, in an era of brain simulations that can copy themselves, empathy with other me-copies could be a form of quasi-altruism for egoists

Yeah, but it'll still be only a small degree of altruism, similar to kin altruism or at best tribe altruism. It won't help vast numbers of weak, suffering minds who stand at the mercy of a few powerful ones.

That's right. But it has one advantage: It's aversive to resource waste, since for agents with these preferences, marginal utility of resources doesn't decrease with availability of resources (because they could always simulate more concurrent happy copies). This would lead to more motivation to use the resources to create happiness instead of wasting them or allowing suffering beings to exist.

Let's say you have a nature-lover who cares far more about his happiness than about anything else. Let's say that person is very wealthy and powerful. If he were poor, he'd make himself happy efficiently, but since he has extra resources, he sponsors vast wildlife in addition. Now compare this to the same guy, with the same preferences, except he can copy himself, make the copies happy and count them in his 'egoism'. We would expect the latter to do much better in the utilitarian calculus than the former.

Aside: This is another great discussion, Hedonic Treader!

Yes, thank you!
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-07T05:51:00

Spoiler tag worked for me. Thanks for the elaboration. It makes me really sad when people advocate "acceptance of 'natural' suffering over 'unnatural' happiness." This has got to change, and my work on wild animals is one concrete instance of it. I'm not working on changing experience-machine attitudes, but popular dislike of experience machines remains one of my personal pet peeves. (This pet peeve needs to be taken for a walk every evening.)

Crashing over the definition of "human" seems unrealistic to me. More of a symbolic device than something that would actually happen, though even as a symbolic fixture, I don't see what it's trying to accomplish. Maybe I should read the book, though.

Hedonic Treader wrote:This would lead to more motivation to use the resources to create happiness instead of wasting them or allowing suffering beings to exist.

Hmm, but what if people have prior-existence intuitions? If there are two copies of you, it doesn't make those existing copies any happier to create a third copy. You might even minimize the number of your copies in order to focus resources on making that single copy as happy as possible.

Maybe you could make the case that those minds which are motivated to create more copies of themselves will be the ones that try to expand, so there will be a lot more of them than the single-copy people. That said, they might also spread themselves pretty thin, and it's not obvious they'd win out in the evolutionary struggle over the long run.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-12-07T08:37:00

Brian Tomasik wrote:I'm not working on changing experience-machine attitudes, but popular dislike of experience machines remains one of my personal pet peeves. (This pet peeve needs to be taken for a walk every evening.)

As always, using status quo bias in our favor is a good idea: It sometimes helps pointing out the millions of total life-years humans have already spent in MMOs (which are, of course, constantly increasing).

Crashing over the definition of "human" seems unrealistic to me. More of a symbolic device than something that would actually happen, though even as a symbolic fixture, I don't see what it's trying to accomplish.

Yeah, the story wasn't perfect or overly plausible in all its details. It also has some lengthy passages that are underwhelming in pace and style. But I appreciated the radical high-concept exploration of a foom almost-Friendly AI with physical quasi-omnipotence.

Hedonic Treader wrote:This would lead to more motivation to use the resources to create happiness instead of wasting them or allowing suffering beings to exist.

Hmm, but what if people have prior-existence intuitions? If there are two copies of you, it doesn't make those existing copies any happier to create a third copy. You might even minimize the number of your copies in order to focus resources on making that single copy as happy as possible.

Well, the question is if people use prior-existence intuitions to their future selves. If I die this night, my future selves won't exist. Most people usually don't want to die any time soon. Living longer is seen as better, even though from a current perspective, there is no prior-existence of any future self.

Now some people may think about copying as being fundamentally different from survival, but I think most analytical people who take the scientific evidence seriously will have to concede that survival is basically a form of metabolic self-copying into the future. One who cares about these types of future self-copies, e.g. by desiring a long life expectancy, and who takes this view seriously, could increase life expectancy considerably by running concurrent copies. But maybe most people won't take it seriously because their self-concepts are evolved to deal with sequential survival rather than concurrent copying.

Maybe you could make the case that those minds which are motivated to create more copies of themselves will be the ones that try to expand, so there will be a lot more of them than the single-copy people. That said, they might also spread themselves pretty thin, and it's not obvious they'd win out in the evolutionary struggle over the long run.

I agree with both points, if self-copying is available for all, the future population would consist primarily of people who are motivated to do so. But too many identical minds could share too many identical flaws, which is a mono-culture-like vulnerability. Then again, it surely is more redundant than having only one brain that can break any day.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-10T05:01:00

Hedonic Treader wrote:It sometimes helps pointing out the millions of total life-years humans have already spent in MMOs (which are, of course, constantly increasing).

Of course, some people don't have such high opinions of those either, though maybe some of the would-be experience-machine-haters also like gaming.

Hedonic Treader wrote:But maybe most people won't take it seriously because their self-concepts are evolved to deal with sequential survival rather than concurrent copying.

That's exactly what I was going to say. People care about their future selves because that's how evolution shaped them. There's no "higher rational" reason why they should care about non-future copies of themselves. If we're going for some higher rational argument, why not just go for utilitarianism itself? That doesn't seem any less intuitive to me than altruism for non-future copies. But I'm not a representative sample, seeing as I'm on this forum. :)

Hedonic Treader wrote:But too many identical minds could share too many identical flaws, which is a mono-culture-like vulnerability. Then again, it surely is more redundant than having only one brain that can break any day.

It's sort of like r vs. K selection in life-history theory.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-12-10T16:40:00

Brian wrote:People care about their future selves because that's how evolution shaped them. There's no "higher rational" reason why they should care about non-future copies of themselves.

It's getting off-topic. Maybe the implications of copying people should be discussed in a separate thread.

However, two quick points:

1) Before a person copies, he may care about all future copies equally, just like we care about our normal future selves equally (ignoring time discounting). All of the copies will be derived from his current self. Pre-commitment devices may be used at this point to facilitate cooperation between future concurrent copies.

2) After a person copies, he can probably reasonably expect the copies to share his values, preferences and personality to a far greater degree than random strangers in a pluralistic society. The copies may also find robust ways of integrating diverging perspectives by arguments or experiences that convinced each of them since the split point. I would trust a copy of myself that split in the last 10 years far more to cooperate with me on my values than any other person (but not completely).
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-10T18:49:00

Both good points! Yes, before the split, the person would (even at an intuitive level) care about all the future copies, so s/he would have an interest in requiring them to get along after the split.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-14T04:34:00

I've always thought something like this should exist, and it turns out it does. :) The Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education

From the overview:
The Center for Compassion and Altruism Research and Education (CCARE) is striving to create a community of scholars and researchers, including neuroscientists, psychologists, educators and philosophical and contemplative thinkers around the study of compassion. Drawing from such varied disciplines - from etiological approaches that examine the evolutionary roots of compassion to skills training programs for strengthening compassion to neuroscientific studies of the brain mechanisms that support compassion as well as the 'warm glow' feelings that reinforce helping others, CCARE is working to gain a deep understanding of compassion and its associated human behaviors in all its richness.


Research objectives:
"This virtue , one of the noblest with which man is endowed, seems to arise incidentally from our sympathies becoming more tender and more widely diffused, until they are extended to all sentient beings."
- Charles Darwin

The center is planning to focus its initial research to test several hypotheses -- That compassion can be trained, that it has important applications in secular fields, that contemplative systems target and enhance neural networks associated with compassion and finally, that rigorous scientific enquiry that draws from the insights of a multitude of disciplines – economics, philosophy and contemplative traditions – can greatly enrich our scientific understanding of deeper qualities of the human mind and heart such as compassion, altruism, and kindess.

Could training compassion have ramifications for recidivism and violence in prisons, or social education in schools? Could it influence cooperative behavior in business settings and negotiations? The center aims to launch a thorough, multidisciplinary examination of compassion -- Its neural correlates in decision making, group behavior and first-person, contemplative applications to create a strictly secular and scientifically rigorous theoretical paradigm for investigating these questions.


Some interesting research projects:
  • Neural Correlates of Compassion in Buddhist Adepts and Novices
  • Investigating the Behavioral and Neural Mechanisms of Compassion Training
  • Neural Networks of Social Compassion and Nurturing: Optical Deconstruction of Altruistic Behavior
  • A Multimodal Study of the Neural Correlates of Experiencing Admiration and Compassion
  • Compassion in the Political Arena

From the summary of "Compassion in the Political Arena":
For many political theorists, the foundation of political liberalism is compassion. This implies, then, that political conservatism involves the absence of compassion. Is this truly the case or might conservatives experience a more bounded form of compassion than liberals? This research area, headed by Matthew Feinberg, Ph.D. and postdoctoral fellow with CCARE, hypothesizes that, whereas liberals generally experience compassion for suffering individuals, conservatives experience a more nuanced compassion directed primarily toward those perceived as ingroup members. Dr. Feinberg will test this hypothesis and examine an underlying mechanism for this effect—the tendency for conservatives to employ emotion regulation strategies that attenuate compassionate responding for outgroup members. He will also explore how knowledge of the different ways liberals and conservatives experience compassion can be utilized to increase overall compassionate responding and enhance the greater good.

"increase overall compassionate responding and enhance the greater good" means "make people more liberal." :)

It would be neat if they undertook a project on how to reduce speciesism.

It's important to note that compassion alone is not enough. We also need rational, calculating, utilitarian tendencies. The combination of these two traits is what will reduce the most expected suffering.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-15T06:20:00

A moving interview with James Doty of CCARE on the excellent podcast, All in the Mind.

I didn't agree with everything James said. For example:
  • In discussing an elderly-longevity study, his explanation confounded correlation with causation.
  • He seemed to suggest that liberal policies must be better just because they're more compassionate, which ignores the possibility that seemingly non-compassionate institutions could potentially yield better outcomes.
  • I also worry that compassion without rationality may lead merely to more short-sighted charity -- e.g., volunteer work, which he mentioned in the interview, or "random acts of kindness," which are endorsed by his Project Compassion -- to the detriment of long-term, indirect thinking and cost-effectiveness analysis.

Things I liked:
  • James's passion for the cause and his touching stories.
  • James mentioned that training courses help extend compassion to "essentially all humans and sentient beings," not just all humans.
  • James explains that many so-called criminals could have turned out differently if people had shown compassion to them. (Not all, of course. Sometimes genes play a strong role too.) One of the best episodes of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood is the "Spoon Mountain Opera" (full episode). It centers on this topic, especially the song "All I Ever Wanted was a Spoon" (19:00 - 20:45). Speaking of altruism for animals, see also "It Doesn't Matter Who's in Trouble" (11:55 - 12:25).

Some quotes from the interview with James:
  • "And it also allowed me to explore something that had always been of interest to me, which is to understand why when people see somebody suffering they don’t intervene to help them. You know people who by every criteria have the capacity to do so, whether it’s by position, whether it’s by financial resources...and they just watch people suffer. Yet the paradox of this of course is you see people who they themselves are suffering or are poor yet they reach out. And so that paradox had stayed with me so once I had made these donations then it allowed me to start exploring that, and I had left Stanford and I came back and that’s when this exploration had started, with collaborating with some scientists."
  • "I’m interested actually in the neural pathways and there are multiple ones. Of course we know about oxytocin or the bonding hormone, it turns out if you give intra-nasal oxytocin to an individual they have this incredible sense of connection to people, but only within their in-group. So the key is how do you expand that in-group to a larger circle if you will? So that’s an area of interest Dave DeSteno actually at Northeastern in the US, he’s actually doing work that shows that if you can take somebody who you don’t see as in your in-group and then look at them and try to sit there and say, is there one thing we have in common? And then you start trying to go down a list, and then you realise that there are probably multiple things. Each time you do that it actually decreases the sense of separateness."
  • "We actually have begun some very interesting work that has some extraordinary results at Stanford where we actually turn on and off some of the genes of nurturing utilising the technique of giving these rodents certain viruses, and then attaching on to these genes these chemo-luminescent substances that in the face of certain wavelengths of light can turn on and off the genes. It’s amazing some of the behaviours that you can see. And in fact maybe it’s even frightening though because it shows you how you can manipulate certain types of behaviours."
  • "When you care for somebody in an authentic way, deep in your heart it stays with you and you can relive it and it makes you want to do it again to somebody else. And you know I call that transcendence, it is a sense that you have a purpose in life, that the act of connecting with another defines your purpose, that we're in fact all one. And when you have that sense, that is the thing that gives you happiness and joy. And it’s not that it gives you that big kick like driving that Ferrari, or picking up the Ferrari, or getting the new Prada purse or whatever...those are short term things. The things I am describing to you I think you will acknowledge are things that stick with you at a very deep level and it defines our humanity and who we are. And showing people the value proposition of those types of behaviours is very powerful."
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-16T00:15:00

A friend pointed me to an excellent article by David Brooks, "The Limits of Empathy." Brooks writes:
People who are empathetic are more sensitive to the perspectives and sufferings of others. They are more likely to make compassionate moral judgments.

The problem comes when we try to turn feeling into action. Empathy makes you more aware of other people’s suffering, but it’s not clear it actually motivates you to take moral action or prevents you from taking immoral action.

In the early days of the Holocaust, Nazi prison guards sometimes wept as they mowed down Jewish women and children, but they still did it. Subjects in the famous Milgram experiments felt anguish as they appeared to administer electric shocks to other research subjects, but they pressed on because some guy in a lab coat told them to.

Empathy orients you toward moral action, but it doesn’t seem to help much when that action comes at a personal cost.

Another example could be the "Good Samaritan" study, where the amount of hurriedness by the subjects had a bigger effect than the moral salience of what they were thinking about.

These claims are generally true. I don't deny that other factors -- including, as Brooks mentions, finding a dime in a phone booth -- can have bigger short-term influences. However, there are a few things to say about this.

(1) People vary in how much they're affected by empathy

Brooks says:
You may feel a pang for the homeless guy on the other side of the street, but the odds are that you are not going to cross the street to give him a dollar.

This may be true for most people but not for everyone. I personally have walked across across the street several times to help a poor person buy food. In fact, I did so somewhat against my better judgment, because I knew theoretically that the money was better spent helping animals, but I didn't want to become cold-hearted. I have also spent hours and hours squishing dying worms in the rain out of concern for them. I would not have done this without feeling empathy.

So, just as I can generalize from one example by seeing a close link between empathy and action, so too Brooks may be doing the same in his case when not seeing such a link. I think the truth is that different people vary.

Brooks goes on to say:
There have been piles of studies investigating the link between empathy and moral action. Different scholars come to different conclusions, but, in a recent paper, Jesse Prinz, a philosopher at City University of New York, summarized the research this way: “These studies suggest that empathy is not a major player when it comes to moral motivation. Its contribution is negligible in children, modest in adults, and nonexistent when costs are significant.” Other scholars have called empathy a “fragile flower,” easily crushed by self-concern.

So as he admits in the second sentence, some studies have reached the conclusion that empathy matters. And even though empathy is easily crushed, that doesn't mean it always is. Sometimes people aren't in a hurry. Sometimes they aren't pressured by an experimenter to shock a victim. Sometimes they're in a sufficiently calm state that their empathy can lead them to donate to charity, or give up meat, or vote for more humane policies.

I did a brief web search and didn't find a lot of studies, but "Empathy, Emotional Expressiveness, and Prosocial Behavior" suggested once again that people vary in the degree of connection between empathy and altruism:
Boys' empathy, in turn, was a strong predictor of prosocial behavior, R^2 = ,55. In contrast, girls' empathy was related to prosocial behaviors with friends, R^2 ~ .13, but not to cooperation with peers.

The argument isn't about whether empathy sometimes has an effect but whether it's the most efficient point of leverage for inducing greater altruism.

(2) Empathy leads to long-term change

To some extent I think Brooks and I are talking about different things. Brooks portrays empathy as a fleeting feeling, "a way to experience delicious moral emotions without confronting the weaknesses in our nature that prevent us from actually acting upon them." This is not really what I'm after. Back in 2007, I had the following exchange with David Pearce:
David: there are euphoriant drugs known in the scientific counterculture as"empathogens" that reliably induce compassionate well-being. The most famous empathogen is of course MDMA (Ecstasy) - the "hug drug". [...]

Brian: Thanks, David. I don't know much about empathogens, but if the major effect is to produce a feeling of "I love the world and the world loves me," this doesn't actually make things better. Feeling at one with other people and animals doesn't do anything to help the sick bird that's being eaten alive by predators right now. What matters is whether people are actually motivated to do something about it.

I agree with Brooks that feel-good emotions are not sufficient for altruistic action.

Brooks goes on to suggest that moral principles play a bigger role in action:
People who actually perform pro-social action don’t only feel for those who are suffering, they feel compelled to act by a sense of duty. Their lives are structured by sacred codes.

Think of anybody you admire. They probably have some talent for fellow-feeling, but it is overshadowed by their sense of obligation to some religious, military, social or philosophic code. They would feel a sense of shame or guilt if they didn’t live up to the code.

I think this might be true. Even for myself, I'm more often motivated by a general feeling of "this is the right thing to do" rather than "I feel sorry for this particular suffering worm," although to be honest, for me the two feelings are pretty close to each other. :)

However, where do these moral principles come from in the first place? For me and probably for a decent fraction of altruists, this strong sense of duty comes from past empathy. Watching a factory-farming video, for example, can change people's lives. The compassion that we feel in a particular instance often doesn't -- and probably shouldn't -- impel short-term action, but it can redirect your life orientation for the long term. If there weren't suffering in the world, I would probably still be playing video games to pass away the days. Empathy is what gives me a purpose in life; without it, I wouldn't care about moral principles in the first place.

Sure, empathy is often not sufficient to provide follow-through without other personality traits (motivation, persistence, intelligence, etc.), but of course that's the case. No single emotion is going to produce effective altruism on its own; you need the combination of several of them. Brooks would probably agree with this, because he acknowledges that promoting empathy does some good; he just points out that it's not enough. That said, I think the tone of the article may lead people to feel as though promoting empathy is valueless rather than recognizing that it's just one ingredient of the recipe.

(3) Empathy guides moral principles

Plenty of people do have meaning in life without significant empathy. Where does it come from? Well, some examples are religious devotion and commitment to conservative moral principles (purity, loyalty, respect for authority, etc.) People can be strongly motivated to action by these things as well. But these are mostly bad moral principles. :)

If we instead promote empathy, we can hook up people's moral-principle brain functions with the cause of reducing suffering. This would make people more liberal, because liberal morality tends to focus mainly or even exclusively on care/harm, and maybe that's part of why Brooks doesn't seem to like empathy-promotion programs.

In the paper that Brooks cites, Jesse Prinz notes this as well.
For
 conservatives,
 there
 is
 little
 tolerance
 for
 transgression;
 three 
strikes
 and
 you’re
 out.
 Lakoff
 captures
 the 
liberal 
value
 system
 by
 saying
 that
 for
 liberals,
 morality
 is
 empathy.
 The
 construct
 of
 empathy
 is
 essential.
 Liberals
 try
 to
 empathize
 with
 both
 victims
 and
 transgressors,
 and,
 instead
 of 
dividing 
the 
world 
into 
good 
and 
evil, 
they 
try 
to 
put 
themselves 
in 
the
 shoes 
of 
people 
on 
both 
sides 
of
 every 
divide.

Prinz goes on to enumerate some dangers with purely empathy-based morality, which are similar to the concerns I raised against James Doty's statements. For example, empathy can lead people to care more about women and children vs. men, or cute animals vs. ugly ones, or those close to us vs. far away, or those affected by disasters vs. systemic problems. These are all real concerns, and this is why rationality is also essential. Indeed, maybe there would be higher leverage in studying what kinds of brain mechanisms make people utilitarian in their thinking?

Closing words

Promoting empathy is valuable for a decent fraction of the population, not just in terms of achieving short-term altruism but more importantly because it inspires people to care about morality in the first place and inspires them to care about the right sorts of moral principles.

There remains the question: Is promoting empathy the most cost-effective use of our resources? I'm skeptical that it is, and I don't intend to fund it in the near term. One reason is that lots of people care about empathy, but few care about specific issues like wild-animal suffering and sentient simulations, so we might expect more low-hanging fruit from the latter. That said, if compelling empathy interventions appear, I might pursue them, and at the very least, I think it's fascinating to keep an eye on work like what CCARE undertakes. I'm glad someone is doing it.

I also acknowledge that my interest in empathy may be based too much on personal experience. I'd be glad to hear from others: What are the influences that were most responsible for inspiring you toward action to reduce suffering?
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-16T02:43:00

Anecdote: The lettuce I buy from the supermarket sometimes has fruit flies, often dead, trapped on the leaves. This makes me pretty sad, because I can imagine the suffering these flies must have endured being trapped, and then I realize how much more suffering like this went on away from my sight when the lettuce was being grown and insecticides were being applied. Then I think further about how much suffering like this happens in nature as well (hence why insecticides aren't necessarily a bad thing if they prevent enough insects from being born).

My response to the sadness is to feel like I want to do something to help, but upon reflection, I realize the best things I can do to help are probably roughly what I'm already doing. In addition, this experience reinforces my motivation not to let insects take too much of a back seat in my focus. The end result is basically to reinforce my resolve as well as make sure that I stay on the right course as far as what I'm doing.

I guess this isn't the experience of everyone. Sometimes short-term compassion leads to short-sighted action. I think, though, that this is because many people don't have a systematic plan for compassion with their life's work. They treat compassion like a checkbox to do in a summary way and then move on. I can understand this, because this is how I treat many other aspects of life that I don't care about. :) I guess in my case, I realized that I couldn't justify doing anything other than focusing on compassion with my life. So at least for a few people, empathy does seem to bubble into long-term vision. Again, though, I don't know if there are better points of leverage in creating effective altruists than by encouraging compassion.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Ruairi on 2012-12-16T12:16:00

Brian Tomasik wrote:What are the influences that were most responsible for inspiring you toward action to reduce suffering?


Adventure hero fantasy stories (especially like this, don't worry he's fine after), wanting to save the world, then I realised a better goal was to maximize happiness and minimize suffering. The I Googled that, found utilitarianism, Googled "utilitarian forum" found Felicifia! :D!
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-12-19T19:56:00

Mike Retriever wrote:"To illustrate his point, at a recent appearance at TED Edinburgh, Zak spritzed the backstage staff with oxytocin, prompting a spontaneous outbreak of group hugging."

Oh My God. This is worse than a furry convention. That makes me feel totally awkward, spontaneous group hug between strangers induced by a hormone. Awesomely creepy!


There is a new TED talk by Molly Crockett: Beware neuro-bunk, criticizing overuse and misuse of neuroscientific findings. Among other things, she mentions that oxytocin is not only involved in trust and empathy, but that it can increase envy, gloating and in-group bias (at ~7:30 in the talk).

If moral enhancement will ever work, it will not be this simple.
"The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it... Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient."

- Dr. Alfred Velpeau (1839), French surgeon
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2012-12-20T08:58:00

I agree, Hedonic Treader. The first paper my cognitive-science professor assigned his students to read was a study showing that people believe explanations with neuro-babble more than equally good explanations without it.

The thing is, we eventually do need the neuroscience. It's not bogus. It's just that, as you say, it takes a lot of work to understand the details. It's sort of like math: In the end, what we understand with mathematical tools is profoundly more insightful than without them, but it's very easy to come up with a simple or ineffective idea, bury it in mathematical jargon, and make it look impressive. Good math is hard and takes a lot of time, but it's ultimately the only way to go. Same for neuroscience.

This means that I don't expect the empathy research necessarily to produce groundbreaking practical insights only because they use more neuroscience than other psychological communities. Rather, I think they're building the theoretical foundation that will eventually allow for taking the next step beyond what we have now -- e.g., direct brain manipulations.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2013-03-22T21:57:00

"Ohio School Shooter TJ Lane Laughs, Gives Finger at His Sentencing":
Lane was waiting for a bus to an alternative school when he killed three students during a Feb. 27, 2012 rampage at Chardon High School. Daniel Parmertor, 16, Demetrius Hewlin, 16, and Russell King Jr., 17, died in the attack. Three other students were injured.

Lane arrived at his sentencing hearing today wearing a blue button down shirt. After he sat down, he unbuttoned the shirt to reveal a white T-shirt with the word "killer" emblazoned across the front in black marker.

When Lane was given the opportunity to make a statement to the court, he gave a short, crude statement that ended with "f*** all of you" before sticking up his middle finger in the courtroom filled with the loved ones of the three students he gunned down.

"Frankly, I wasn't prepared for this," the prosecutor said moments after Lane's gesture. He said the action was proof that Lane is a "disgusting human being."

[...]

Lane smirked and smiled as family members of his victims called him "repulsive" and hoped for him to be locked up in a cage "like an animal" for the rest of his life.

Sad to see the hostility on both sides, but it's not surprising. In the days before government had a monopoly on legitimate violence, emotions of revenge served as deterrence.

It's also sad to see that they want him locked up "like an animal." What does that say about animals?

"I hope you have a cold, rough, unkind prison life with monsters like yourself," [Parmertor's mom] said. "If I had my choice you would die an extremely slow, torturous death...You're a weak, pathetic, vile coward."

:(

"What was the motive for this merciless rampage?" the judge asked before announcing his sentence. "The answer is, we don't know. We have not been provided a clear answer or even a murky one."

Judge David Fuhry said Lane appeared to simply want to "make a big splash, make front page news."

"[He] attacked without discernible motive, provocation or reason. The court finds such a person extremely dangerous," he said.

[...]

"To the contrary, TJ Lane was an intelligent student positioned to graduate early. He was not insane, incompetent or impaired on Feb. 27, 2012," the judge said. "He consciously and methodically carried out a plan to kill."

:(
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby CosmicPariah on 2013-04-14T18:49:00

Elijah wrote:
Brian Tomasik wrote:I came across the song "Little Piece of Heaven" (lyrics), which is one of a plenitude of utterly disgusting songs. (I don't recommend watching the video.)


That's nothing. (obviously NSFW)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4rJHC355JY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF15auu7UeQ


Those are just about sex and teenage politics... I'm not reading off much sadism.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby CosmicPariah on 2013-04-15T04:44:00

Not 'torture sadistic' at all and I didn't notice that line when I clicked through the songs, so not the prevailing content.

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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2013-04-17T04:17:00

Elijah wrote:Anyway, even if you are not a retributivist, are you honestly upset that the victim's mother would say this?

Yeah, I am. I can understand why she did, and I don't wish her ill on that account. But her wishes should not be carried out.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2013-05-04T19:15:00

"The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it... Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient."

- Dr. Alfred Velpeau (1839), French surgeon
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby peterhurford on 2013-05-04T20:57:00

Elijah wrote:here's a Michael Dukakis question for you, Brian: If your wife (if you had one) was raped, and the rapist was trussed up at your feet, and you had a truncheon, a blowtorch, an iron maiden, what have you...what would you do? Not what would be morally right to do, but what would you do?


Call the police.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby peterhurford on 2013-05-05T19:00:00

Elijah wrote:However, can you honestly say that you would not, in practice, do so?


I don't know. The situation seems very difficult to contemplate and it's not a mindset I can adequately simulate. However, I do recall being in significantly smaller scale though potentially analogous situations where I have had the opportunity for revenge, felt tempted, but realized that it would only get me in more trouble and I would accomplish the same desired effect but better by calling the authorities.
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Re: Preventing Antisocial Personality Disorder

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2013-05-06T05:46:00

Elijah wrote:I'm sorry. The question was in poor taste. I recognize intellectually that my retributive "intuitions" are a character flaw, but sometimes it's hard to remember. Please accept my apologies.

Apology accepted. <3
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