Here's a philosophically unsophisticated diatribe against vegetarianism. It's probably not the most quotable and rebuttable piece of anti-begetarian literature. But it's a populist message so it gives a good impression of the kinds of memes and the kind of politics we're up against.
http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.c ... arian_test

To be fair, his points about not eating meat after the (economic) fact are fair enough. The idea equating criticism of not-100%-consistent practices with the absence of even the slightest concern for animal welfare is what makes it nasty. Penn & Teller have also done a fairly similar sounding diatribe that I can't find now by asserting that comparisons of factory farming and the holocaust are bullshit (IIRC they don't give any argument), and then conspicuously eating a big bucket of KFC chicken. I don't normally get affected by meat-eaters, but that pseudo-religious self-righteousness from supposed defenders of reason was pretty depressing.

Found it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inFtOMx8nDU

(The really disturbing moments are at 10-10.20 and 28.20-28.53)

I guess the common theme is painting all animal welfarists into the same position. The episode nominally directed against PETA basically asserts that they're all crazy since a handful of them are, and has a few generic pro-meat/anti-vegetarian digs along the way.

Pretty vile stuff.

On a related note, do others here feel PETA is a net benefit or net detriment? Looking at all the internet rage directed against them, you'd be inclined to think they were counter-productive.

Yet the same criticisms were also directed at the vanguard of the gay rights movement back in the 70s, by members of the older, conservative "homophile" movement -- don't "flaunt" your beliefs or you'll lose credibility for all of us. As it turned out, visibility and agenda setting turned out to be much more important to the gay rights movement than quelling the concerns of mainstream society.

I tend to think the same applies to PETA. Maddox and the Penn and Tellers wouldn't look more kindly on vegans if PETA stuck to mild-mannered letter-writing campaigns and didn't use naked women or holocaust imagery.

Having said that, while I like their attention-grabbing campaigns (girls in lettuce bras) and shock value campaigns (Holocaust on your Plate, Your Mommy Kills Animals), I'm not such a fan of their silly, cutesy press releases (encouraging Ben & Jerrys to use human milk for ice cream, renaming fish as sea kittens).

The latter type of stunt seems to trivialise animal suffering even while drawing attention to it, which seems rather counter-productive.

The Penn and Teller episode is pretty unconvincing. To a philosophically sophisticated person who has some sympathy for animal welfare concerns, I don't think it would be at all convincing. The idea that PETA opposes pets and guide dogs is a lie, for starters. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/unleash ... rst-r.html

It seems that the main aspects of PETA's work that we oppose are:
> their opposition to the killing of animals
> their methods of getting press attention (probably counterproductive)
> and their suggestion that animal research is harmful and unnecessary (this is not at all clear)

Watching Penn & Teller always makes my brain contort. They're some of the best showmen in the business, and when Bullshit turns its sights on clearly nasty groups it's obviously quite effective. The trouble is whenever they address an issue with an ounce of nuance - it's always an aggressive defence of the right-libertarian line, often using downright dishonesty and abusing the skills of misdirection they've mastered as professional magicians, and inevitably representing the worst of the proponents of whatever view they're attacking as typical middle-of-the-roaders (see their comments on climate change, sketch on banning water, etc).

Re PETA, I don't have a strong view. It doesn't seem like that interesting a question - they're clearly not so effective that we should be spending any effort supporting them, nor so counterproductive that we should be spending any effort assisting them. I have vaguely positive feelings towards their existence, though it would surely help a huge amount if they would just completely disassociate themself from violence.