Worse than the Holocaust?

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Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Pablo Stafforini on 2012-08-31T20:00:00

Stuart Rachels poses this question in the final section of a recent paper on vegetarianism (in T. L. Beauchamp & R. G. Frey (eds.), The Oxford handbook of animal ethics, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012, pp. 877–905). Some quotes:

When people in our culture think of a moral horror, they think of the Holocaust—the campaign of genocide in which Hitler and his Nazi thugs starved, beat, and ultimately murdered 5.7 million Jews.185 They do not think of industrial farming. But which has caused more suffering: the Holocaust or industrial farming? In asking this question, I use the word “suffering” in its proper sense: suffering is extreme pain, or agony. To compare industrial farming to the Holocaust, let’s consider the number of victims involved in each.


Today around ten billion animals per year are killed in American slaughterhouses, and the vast majority of these animals suffered greatly. Let’s assume, very conservatively, that during the last twenty years, around five billion animals per year have suffered in American factory farms, which amounts to 100 billion suffering animals. And let’s assume that the Holocaust caused suffering to 20 million human beings. This means that, for every single human being who suffered in the Holocaust, five thousand animals have suffered in American factory farms during the last twenty years.


Many people hope that animal pain isn’t really so bad. [...] According to this argument, animals don’t really suffer, because their pain isn’t amplified by such emotions as regret, self-pity, shame, humiliation, and dread.
This argument, however, is unsound. Imagine that a human being has twisted her ankle and is now on the ground, writhing in agony. She’s trapped in a world of pain, waiting for it to end. But she doesn’t blame herself for the pain, nor does she fear for her future. Her pain is not “amplified by distinctly human emotions such as regret, self-pity, shame, humiliation, and dread.” Her pain just hurts like hell. This example proves that pain can be very, very bad even if it’s not “amplified by distinctly human emotions.” If castrating a pig without anesthesia causes the pig that type of pain, then that’s enough for my arguments.


But suppose I’m wrong. Suppose that, for whatever reason, human pain is ten times worse than animal pain. On that assumption, factory farming over the last twenty years has still caused pain morally equivalent to five hundred Holocausts. Or suppose there’s only a 10% chance that the arguments in this paper are correct. On that assumption, factory farming, again, has had the expected utility of five hundred Holocausts. And if there’s only a 10% chance that animal pain is 10% as bad as human pain, then factory farming has had the expected utility of fifty Holocausts (or really more, since I’m ignoring a lot of the suffering caused by industrial farming). The philosophical arguments for vegetarianism are easy. The difficult thing is getting people to stop eating meat.


The paper deserves to be read in full. Rachels is a utilitarian, and his way of approaching the morality of meat-eating should resonate with many readers of this forum.
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Michael Dickens on 2012-09-03T04:09:00

Rachels is absolutely right here, although I think this is maybe not the best way to approach the subject from a PR standpoint. I think it can help vegans stay vegan, but I expect most people will consider comparing factory farming to the Holocaust a reductio ad absurdum against animal welfarism.

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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Michael Dickens on 2012-09-07T02:21:00

In my previous comment I had only read the quotes Pablo posted. I just finished reading the entire article, and I think it makes an effective case against factory farming. I would gladly give it to omnivores to read. My only major problem with it is that the author described the details of factory farming before explaining why it matters, which I think could turn off some readers—especially the willfully ignorant type that Rachels describes.

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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby davidpearce on 2012-09-07T19:03:00

All too often comparisons with the Nazis and the Holocaust are overheated rhetoric. Not here , alas, for  we have strong grounds for believing pigs, say, are at least as sentient as a two-year-old human toddler. The question of whether or not to draw the parallel explicitly in debate is purely tactical: is it helpful or counterproductive? The fact that some authors who do draw the parallel (for instance Nobel laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer) happen to be Jewish ought not to be relevant. But in practice, it does no harm to mention their Jewish identity when citing their work. It's then harder for critics to claim we are insulting the memory of victims of the (human) Holocaust.

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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby spindoctor on 2012-09-21T05:55:00

The response I've received from social justice-oriented progressives when using the "Holocaust gambit" is that vegans must not "appropriate" the suffering of marginalized groups, and that it was offensive to Holocaust survivors to compare their plight to animals in light of historical, anti-Semitic dehumanization. (The same response is given to comparisons of animal ownership to slavery and dairy farming to rape, which are sometimes made by animal-abolitionist types). Indeed, on one very large, social-justice oriented web community I sometimes drop into, discussing speciesism was entirely banned for this reason.
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby peterhurford on 2012-09-21T19:19:00

For utilitarian reasons, I do think it is worse than the Holocaust, but also for utilitarian reasons I strongly doubt we ought to emphasize that fact -- the rhetoric seems to be ineffective and off-putting.
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Hedonic Treader on 2012-09-21T19:45:00

I think it goes both ways. It causes some censorship and it offends some people. But sometimes people need offending, and it certainly is an attention grabber.

I think the important part is that you don't feed the potential misunderstanding that you think the life of a human - or a human of a minority group like jews - has the same value as the life of a chicken, ignoring all the differences in intelligence, personality, social connectedness etc. But you can still point out the similarities between factory farming and the holocaust, such as the industrial treatment of conscious, sentient beings with emotions, fears and desires, as mere objects to be mistreated on a very large scale. Or the systematic de-empathizing of society and the work staff through hierarchical diffusion of responsibility, blocking of authentic insight, or propaganda and euphemisms. Or the simple fact that enormous amounts of pain are/were created by these systems as a function of intentional human agency.

Otoh, to simply compare the scales is disingenuous. After all, the holocaust wasn't the only human-on-human genocide or infliction of large-scale suffering or killings.

Btw, I still think the better strategy is to create the empathetic link with animal suffering - literally, by linking to direct depictions of authentic animal suffering. The Facebook campaign of the Humane League and Vegan Outreach have done this, e.g. I think generous donors like Brian have helped a lot to strengthen this empathetic link in the global brain of humanity. Whether this actually takes and shifts suffering statistics in the long run remains to be seen. The widened "Circle of Compassion" could be seen either as increases in empathy, or cynically, as increases in those groups of humans who can spit in your soup or ddos your website because you publicly excluded them - in the latter case, we would never see it take robustly for non-human animals because they can't do anything to harm us in retaliation.
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby RyanCarey on 2012-09-22T12:36:00

peterhurford wrote:For utilitarian reasons, I do think it is worse than the Holocaust, but also for utilitarian reasons I strongly doubt we ought to emphasize that fact -- the rhetoric seems to be ineffective and off-putting.
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby LJM1979 on 2012-10-04T15:46:00

spindoctor wrote:The response I've received from social justice-oriented progressives when using the "Holocaust gambit" is that vegans must not "appropriate" the suffering of marginalized groups, and that it was offensive to Holocaust survivors to compare their plight to animals in light of historical, anti-Semitic dehumanization. (The same response is given to comparisons of animal ownership to slavery and dairy farming to rape, which are sometimes made by animal-abolitionist types). Indeed, on one very large, social-justice oriented web community I sometimes drop into, discussing speciesism was entirely banned for this reason.

That is not social justice-oriented progressives then. That is speciesist progressives.

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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Michael Dickens on 2012-11-02T22:22:00

LJM1979 wrote:That is not social justice-oriented progressives then. That is speciesist progressives.


I hardly even mind that most people's thinking is still deeply speciesist. What really gets me, though, is how many people from communities like GWWC and Less Wrong continue to promote speciesism—they should know better! If your forum is about social justice, it should be real social justice, not merely human social justice.

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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby peterhurford on 2012-11-03T18:13:00

MTGandP wrote:
LJM1979 wrote:That is not social justice-oriented progressives then. That is speciesist progressives.


I hardly even mind that most people's thinking is still deeply speciesist. What really gets me, though, is how many people from communities like GWWC and Less Wrong continue to promote speciesism—they should know better! If your forum is about social justice, it should be real social justice, not merely human social justice.


This is exactly why Felicifia must continue to exist and expand.
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Pablo Stafforini on 2012-11-08T02:58:00

peterhurford wrote:
MTGandP wrote:
LJM1979 wrote:That is not social justice-oriented progressives then. That is speciesist progressives.


I hardly even mind that most people's thinking is still deeply speciesist. What really gets me, though, is how many people from communities like GWWC and Less Wrong continue to promote speciesism—they should know better! If your forum is about social justice, it should be real social justice, not merely human social justice.


This is exactly why Felicifia must continue to exist and expand.

At Peter Hurford's request, the most recent LessWrong survey includes a question on vegetarianism. The results should be ready soon.
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Pablo Stafforini on 2012-12-02T22:35:00

The survey results have now been published. It turns out that 12.4% of respondents are vegetarian. As Yvain notes in his comments, this is almost four times the American average (3.2%). For a less flattering comparison, consider that 25% of the philosophers that responded to Brian Leiter's 'Philosophers, Eating, Ethics' poll said they were vegetarian and 8% said they were vegan. In other words, a whopping one third of respondents are either vegans or vegetarians!
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Michael Dickens on 2012-12-04T03:17:00

Pablo Stafforini wrote:The survey results have now been published. It turns out that 12.4% of respondents are vegetarian. As Yvain notes in his comments, this is almost four times the American average (3.2%). For a less flattering comparison, consider that 25% of the philosophers that responded to Brian Leiter's 'Philosophers, Eating, Ethics' poll said they were vegetarian and 8% said they were vegan. In other words, a whopping one third of respondents are either vegans or vegetarians!


I was pleasantly surprised by how many LWers are vegetarians. In an absolute sense it's still quite a low number, but it's certainly a lot better than the general population.

Brian Leiter's poll looks prone to response bias.

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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby peterhurford on 2013-01-08T05:53:00

Elijah wrote:Avoiding discussion of disturbing but important facts has never done any good.


Maybe. But careful use of rhetoric is also important. I think the typical person is unlikely to be persuaded by Holocaust comparisons.
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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby Michael Dickens on 2013-01-08T21:43:00

Elijah wrote:We needn't take pains to emphasize that it is worse than the holocaust, but we also shouldn't take pains to avoid the comparison. It IS worse––vastly worse––and we should not go out of our way to avoid saying so.


I can't think of a situation in which "factory farming is worse than the Holocaust" would be a natural thing to say. In any situation, you can say something else that's equally true and less divisive.

The only exception I can think of is if someone explicitly asked, "Do you think factory farming is worse than the Holocaust?" Edit: Actually, if someone asked that, I would probably respond with something like, "I don't think it's an important comparison. Both were really bad. I think we should stop factory farming, and if the Holocaust were happening right now, I would also think that we should stop the Holocaust."

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Re: Worse than the Holocaust?

Postby LJM1979 on 2013-01-09T00:06:00

Michael Dickens wrote:
Elijah wrote:We needn't take pains to emphasize that it is worse than the holocaust, but we also shouldn't take pains to avoid the comparison. It IS worse––vastly worse––and we should not go out of our way to avoid saying so.


I can't think of a situation in which "factory farming is worse than the Holocaust" would be a natural thing to say. In any situation, you can say something else that's equally true and less divisive.

The only exception I can think of is if someone explicitly asked, "Do you think factory farming is worse than the Holocaust?" Edit: Actually, if someone asked that, I would probably respond with something like, "I don't think it's an important comparison. Both were really bad. I think we should stop factory farming, and if the Holocaust were happening right now, I would also think that we should stop the Holocaust."

Then you look like you're afraid to share your true beliefs though.

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