I posted something about this before. I have been arguing with this guy who has the idea that switching from tofu to grass-fed beef and dairy would be an improvement, because I would be reducing my contribution to the collateral deaths associated with soybean production, and I would also be increasing my contribution to the number of cows who come into existence and live lives which contain, on balance, more pleasant than aversive experiences.

Do people have any thoughts about that idea?

Hm, theres also the fact that being veg*n helps fight speciesism and the monetary cost of eating meat that you could donate to effective causes.

Of course he might also just be wrong, this ( http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc ) might have some nice info

Ruairi wrote:Hm, theres also the fact that being veg*n helps fight speciesism and the monetary cost of eating meat that you could donate to effective causes.

Of course he might also just be wrong, this ( http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc ) might have some nice info

Regarding anti-speciesism, people do show off and compete for social status in liberal circles on "cage-free" "grass-fed" and other such standards, and alter their self-identity around them too. Perhaps not as much as being vegan but the sign looks to be the same.

The point about saving money is right, although less relevant for someone who mostly doesn't donate income at the margin and gets much pleasure out of carnivory.

Is there an assumption that one must eat one of these two foods?

Well, if you can think of a third option that would be even better that would be interesting.

Rupert wrote:Well, if you can think of a third option that would be even better that would be interesting.

Eat other foods? Whatever leads to the least pain. Usually when I see people mentioning the pain/killing associated with soy production, it's just because they want to eat meat (not because they really care about suffering) and I was viewing what your friend said with a lot of suspicion. I apologize if this was a case where he genuinely was concerned about suffering.

Well, the question is how to get a nutritionally adequate diet that causes the least pain. It's hard to know how to calculate how to do this because we don't really know how much suffering is associated with each type of food.

Rupert wrote:Well, the question is how to get a nutritionally adequate diet that causes the least pain. It's hard to know how to calculate how to do this because we don't really know how much suffering is associated with each type of food.

I agree with that. I think ambiguity about which forms of life are sentient is one of the biggest problems for utilitarianism and I'm not sure it's an answerable question. I'm not advocating abandoning utilitarianism; I can't think of a better ethical theory. But I see this as a huge obstacle.

Rupert wrote:Well, the question is how to get a nutritionally adequate diet that causes the least pain. It's hard to know how to calculate how to do this because we don't really know how much suffering is associated with each type of food.

That's very true, but I think there is a good possibility: to promote the most conducive diet for promoting moral consideration for animals. I think veganism is the best diet for this.

So I promote veganism, although I know it's very likely that another diets directly cause less pain.

Daniel Dorado wrote:That's very true, but I think there is a good possibility: to promote the most conducive diet for promoting moral consideration for animals. I think veganism is the best diet for this.

So I promote veganism, although I know it's very likely that another diets directly cause less pain.

That's an interesting point Daniel, but one of my options would be to switch to grass-fed beef and yet still support veganism advocacy charities. It is conceivable that this would be the optimal option, even if I don't necessarily like the idea of doing it very much.

I guess on the other hand my being a vegan probably has created a few vegetarian-years over the years, so I'm not really sure. I suppose on the whole veganism looks like the best choice, but it's interesting to think about.

I guess another point to be made is that I may already have reached my limit in terms of the number of additional vegetarian-years I can create by being a vegan. But you never know.

Are you using vegan and vegetarian interchangeably or do you think you're creating only lacto-ovo vegetarians?

I meant to use "vegetarian" in the sense which is neutral between lacto-ovo-vegetarian and vegan. I think I've inspired a few people to be vegetarian but I don't know anyone whom I've inspired to be fully vegan.

OK, that makes sense.