Should I give up coffee?

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Should I give up coffee?

Postby Rupert on 2013-02-16T09:12:00

I'm trying to decide whether to go to the supermarket and buy some more coffee or to go cold-turkey on my coffee addiction.

Basically, as far as I can see, from a utilitarian perspective what's at stake here is that if I succeed in breaking my coffee addiction permanently then there will be a bit more money available to spend on altruistic activities. On the other hand, if I go cold-turkey on the coffee I run the risk of not being very productive today, and I promised someone I'd go over the maths parts of a book they wrote about promoting vegetarianism. I suppose it's even conceivable that it might affect my productivity on Monday when I actually have paid work to do.

Is there a clear-cut utilitarian answer here? Can anyone come up with any good utilitarian excuses for me to go and get some coffee? :D

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby LJM1979 on 2013-02-16T11:24:00

I think on the whole, over the long-term, almost all currently available psychoactive drugs (including caffeine) do more harm than good. You'd probably be more productive in the long-term without coffee anyway and also have more money available to donate. I say this as someone with a caffeine addiction myself, though, but I'm trying to stop. I only have coffee or caffeine a couple of times a month now.

Today may or may not be the best day for you to stop though. You have to
A) time the stopping strategically;
B) develop a plan of what to do when you have cravings;
C) be ready to prepare for lots of withdrawal symptoms (up to a week) if you're a regular consumer of caffeine

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby Ruairi on 2013-02-23T18:15:00

I've been drinking caffeinated drinks during my mock exams. It seems to be working well, as well as being more alert it seems to take me longer to get bored. I wrote some thoughts in a file which I've posted below:

Preliminary google search shows no mortality effects? Mortality effects must be discounted due to haste consideration? But not discounted due to possibility of being alive for singularity, etc?

However, high sugar content or other ingredients may be bad. Drink coffee or low sugar version instead?

Therefore only consider monetary cost Vs. productivity?

1 litre of “kick” (32mg caffeine/100ml) is €1.96. Lets say cost of caffeinated drinks is €700 per year (but this is high because I won’t need that much and buying in bulk is cheaper.)

Lets say I work 60 hours a week (optimistic? I hope pessimistic).

It might increase my work hours and/or my productivity.

Ignoring extra hours lets say my productivity increases by 1%.

----

60 X 52 = work hours in one year (assuming no holidays, then again 60 might be low and I don’t want holidays) = 3120 hours.

3120 / 100 = 31.2 hours for €700

An hour of my work has to be worth at least €22.44.

----

I think this is possible. Also I think the monetary cost may be way to high (maybe it should be divided by 2) and the productivity estimate may be way too low. [EDIT: on second thoughts I very much doubt an hour of my work is worth €22...]

Also maybe there are maybe better ways to increase productivity, eating well, sleep, exercise.
----
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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2013-02-23T21:31:00

I agree with LJM1979 except that I don't have first-hand experience with coffee specifically. It's not clear to me that the expected productivity boost of coffee over the long term is positive or negative. Drugs can feel like they work in the short term, but the effect might wear off in the long term. Feel free to read more research on whether caffeine actually boosts long-term productivity rather than just short-term. My guess is that it doesn't. People say caffeine releases cortisol, which is designed for short-term productivity at long-term cost to the body. Anyway, I'm skeptical of taking health claims too seriously, but the general advice of almost anyone with any addiction is, "I wish I'd never started."

All of that said, I don't think coffee is the biggest problem, so I wouldn't sweat about it too much either way. But yes, if you can save some money and potentially improve your wellbeing by not having withdrawal symptoms, that's great.
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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby LJM1979 on 2013-02-24T12:37:00

From what I've read, I think coffee gives an energy boost for the first few weeks of regular use and then tolerance builds up. Over long-term regular use, the buzz people get from caffeine consumption is just withdrawal reversal.
Here is a review article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16001109

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby Brian Tomasik on 2013-02-25T04:13:00

Cool. Sort of like taking out a loan: You get extra money now, but you have to keep taking out loans to pay it back. If you try to go off, you have to pay extra to cover the debt.

I don't know if this is actually true -- just giving an analogy to that finding.
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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby LJM1979 on 2013-02-25T11:02:00

Brian Tomasik wrote:Cool. Sort of like taking out a loan: You get extra money now, but you have to keep taking out loans to pay it back. If you try to go off, you have to pay extra to cover the debt.

I don't know if this is actually true -- just giving an analogy to that finding.

I like the analogy

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby peterhurford on 2013-02-25T16:03:00

LJM1979 wrote:From what I've read, I think coffee gives an energy boost for the first few weeks of regular use and then tolerance builds up. Over long-term regular use, the buzz people get from caffeine consumption is just withdrawal reversal.
Here is a review article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16001109


I've noticed this a bit in my life. Now that I've given up regular coffee, I am able to selectively use coffee to gain a noticeable and reliable energy boost when I drink it, as long as I am careful to only have no more than about one cup every two weeks or so.
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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby LJM1979 on 2013-02-25T21:31:00

peterhurford wrote:
LJM1979 wrote:From what I've read, I think coffee gives an energy boost for the first few weeks of regular use and then tolerance builds up. Over long-term regular use, the buzz people get from caffeine consumption is just withdrawal reversal.
Here is a review article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16001109


I've noticed this a bit in my life. Now that I've given up regular coffee, I am able to selectively use coffee to gain a noticeable and reliable energy boost when I drink it, as long as I am careful to only have no more than about one cup every two weeks or so.

Well, that's very good. Most people with any drug (including caffeine) love the "high" so much that they just have more and more. If you can control your caffeine intake that methodically, I'm impressed. Most US adults can't go more than 8 hours without caffeine.

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby peterhurford on 2013-02-26T03:59:00

Most people with any drug (including caffeine) love the "high" so much that they just have more and more.


That used to be me; but then it stopped working. Technically, it's still me (I do love productivity boosts) except I know this system is the only way it will stay working before the boosts become useless.
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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby Pat on 2013-02-28T11:55:00

For people who do use caffeine, I recommend using caffeine tablets rather than coffee. They are dirt cheap: for me, a year's supply costs about the same as a couple of lattes at Starbucks (you can order them from Amazon). Caffeine tablets also take no time to prepare and require no waiting in lines, nor do they force you to take more trips to the bathroom.

The downsides are two. First, you can overdose pretty easily, so keep them away from children and don't get them if you are or have been suicidal. Surprisingly, the bottle that mine came in wasn't child proof. Second, you miss out on the possible health benefits of chronic coffee consumption (the benefits are associated with consumption of decaf, so it's not the caffeine that's doing the work). I don't believe health benefits should factor in your decision, since epidemiolical evidence is always suspect, and the diseases that coffee may protect against (type-2 diabetes, Parkinson's disease, dementia, cancer, heart rhythm problems, and strokes) would most likely affect you only several decades in the future.

I agree that using caffeine every day is probably not optimal, but completely avoiding it probably isn't either. Most people can use a given drug (including heroin or cocaine) without becoming addicted, and caffeine relatively pretty benign, so it's probably good to try caffeine out to see what it can do for you. (It is probably not good to try heroin or cocaine, since their cost-benefit profiles are less favorable.)

Many people on the Internet recommend consuming L-theanine with caffeine tablets. L-theanine (which is in green tea) supposedly makes caffeine use less anxiety- and jitter-provoking. L-theanine costs significantly more than caffeine, though.

LMJ1979 wrote:Here is a review article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16001109

Interesting article. Here's the full text.

The article doesn't make the case that chronic caffeine consumption decreases performance, only that it fails to increase performance:
"There is little evidence of caffeine having beneficial effects on performance or mood under conditions of long-term caffeine use vs abstinance...Appropriately controlled studies show that the effects of caffeine on performance and mood, widely perceived to be net beneficial psychostimulant effects, are almost wholly attributable to reversal of adverse withdrawal effects associated with short periods of abstinence from the drug." [emphases mine]

Even if caffeine or other stimulants provide no net benefit and only time-shift your mental resources, judicious use can be beneficial. Stimulants can help you

* Tackle aversive tasks. Sometimes you need some extra energy to do something you've been putting off. Rather than wait till the deadline approaches, you could use stimulants to give you a temporary energy boost and perhaps get it done ahead of time.
* Concentrate when you need to. My job has modest cognitive demands—basically, I need to stay awake. When I get home, I face more-demanding tasks, such as studying. Others might face the opposite situation: a demanding job followed by a period of relaxation at the end of the day. Stimulants can help shift your energy to when it's more valuable.
* Succeed in high-stakes situations. This is essentially the same as the last point, but I need three points to justify a bulleted list. Stimulants might help you give better answers in a job interview or make you more outgoing or interesting at a party.

LMJ1979 wrote:I say this as someone with a caffeine addiction myself, though, but I'm trying to stop. I only have coffee or caffeine a couple of times a month now.

If you have caffeine only bimonthly, you probably don't qualify as an addict (except in the Alcoholics Anonymous sense of "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic" :)).

LMJ1979 wrote:Most US adults can't go more than 8 hours without caffeine.

I was surprised to read in the article you linked to that "more than 80% of the population consumes one or more caffeine beverages daily."

I started using caffeine regularly (but no more than every three days) only a couple of months ago, so my enthusiasm for it might be tempered if tolerance sets in. And yes, I'm on it now.

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby Pat on 2013-02-28T12:09:00


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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby Rupert on 2013-02-28T12:34:00

I thank you folks for your helpful discussions.

My plan to give up coffee didn't work out as planned, I'm afraid.

Perhaps I will do a little more research into the pros and cons, maybe looking at some of the articles that have been linked to here, before having another go at kicking the habit.

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby LJM1979 on 2013-02-28T23:22:00

Pat wrote:For people who do use caffeine, I recommend using caffeine tablets rather than coffee. They are dirt cheap: for me, a year's supply costs about the same as a couple of lattes at Starbucks (you can order them from Amazon). Caffeine tablets also take no time to prepare and require no waiting in lines, nor do they force you to take more trips to the bathroom.

The downsides are two. First, you can overdose pretty easily, so keep them away from children and don't get them if you are or have been suicidal. Surprisingly, the bottle that mine came in wasn't child proof. Second, you miss out on the possible health benefits of chronic coffee consumption (the benefits are associated with consumption of decaf, so it's not the caffeine that's doing the work). I don't believe health benefits should factor in your decision, since epidemiolical evidence is always suspect, and the diseases that coffee may protect against (type-2 diabetes, Parkinson's disease, dementia, cancer, heart rhythm problems, and strokes) would most likely affect you only several decades in the future.

I agree that using caffeine every day is probably not optimal, but completely avoiding it probably isn't either. Most people can use a given drug (including heroin or cocaine) without becoming addicted, and caffeine relatively pretty benign, so it's probably good to try caffeine out to see what it can do for you. (It is probably not good to try heroin or cocaine, since their cost-benefit profiles are less favorable.)

Many people on the Internet recommend consuming L-theanine with caffeine tablets. L-theanine (which is in green tea) supposedly makes caffeine use less anxiety- and jitter-provoking. L-theanine costs significantly more than caffeine, though.

LMJ1979 wrote:Here is a review article
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16001109

Interesting article. Here's the full text.

The article doesn't make the case that chronic caffeine consumption decreases performance, only that it fails to increase performance:
"There is little evidence of caffeine having beneficial effects on performance or mood under conditions of long-term caffeine use vs abstinance...Appropriately controlled studies show that the effects of caffeine on performance and mood, widely perceived to be net beneficial psychostimulant effects, are almost wholly attributable to reversal of adverse withdrawal effects associated with short periods of abstinence from the drug." [emphases mine]

Even if caffeine or other stimulants provide no net benefit and only time-shift your mental resources, judicious use can be beneficial. Stimulants can help you

* Tackle aversive tasks. Sometimes you need some extra energy to do something you've been putting off. Rather than wait till the deadline approaches, you could use stimulants to give you a temporary energy boost and perhaps get it done ahead of time.
* Concentrate when you need to. My job has modest cognitive demands—basically, I need to stay awake. When I get home, I face more-demanding tasks, such as studying. Others might face the opposite situation: a demanding job followed by a period of relaxation at the end of the day. Stimulants can help shift your energy to when it's more valuable.
* Succeed in high-stakes situations. This is essentially the same as the last point, but I need three points to justify a bulleted list. Stimulants might help you give better answers in a job interview or make you more outgoing or interesting at a party.

LMJ1979 wrote:I say this as someone with a caffeine addiction myself, though, but I'm trying to stop. I only have coffee or caffeine a couple of times a month now.

If you have caffeine only bimonthly, you probably don't qualify as an addict (except in the Alcoholics Anonymous sense of "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic" :)).

LMJ1979 wrote:Most US adults can't go more than 8 hours without caffeine.

I was surprised to read in the article you linked to that "more than 80% of the population consumes one or more caffeine beverages daily."

I started using caffeine regularly (but no more than every three days) only a couple of months ago, so my enthusiasm for it might be tempered if tolerance sets in. And yes, I'm on it now.

Regular caffeine use impairs performance in the sense that you have to keep consuming the product just to stay at your baseline level. For example, if person A and person B are otherwise identical but A has coffee every day at 8AM and B doesn't, then by 8:30 or 9AM, they should be performing identically. At 7AM, B will be performing better. Likewise, if A is unable to get coffee on a particular day, he will be performing much worse than B.

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby LJM1979 on 2013-02-28T23:28:00


Eh, you'll find results all over the map from caffeine research studies. Although I'm open to the possibility of psychoactive substances being more effective in the future, I think most currently available are shitty - due to side effects, withdrawal, and/or tolerance. And there are bad file-drawer effects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_drawer_effect) whenever money can be made by filtering the publications.

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby Pat on 2013-03-01T06:37:00

I was suggesting that those who consume caffeine may be able to enhance its benefits by harnessing the power of the placebo effect. Reading a bunch of abstracts from studies that found caffeine to have benefits might cause you to react more favorably to caffeine. You're probably right that they aren't the best-designed studies ever.

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby LJM1979 on 2013-03-01T07:56:00

Pat wrote:I was suggesting that those who consume caffeine may be able to enhance its benefits by harnessing the power of the placebo effect. Reading a bunch of abstracts from studies that found caffeine to have benefits might cause you to react more favorably to caffeine. You're probably right that they aren't the best-designed studies ever.

OK, yeah, they could do that.

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby kevinsmith07 on 2013-03-20T07:41:00

to be habbitual for any kind of drugs specially in case of caffeine that is more common with people now a days with coffee is not good for health.so avoid any kind of drug and start your day with natural things like water, juice and fruits, these are more effective and energetic then coffee.

http://www.majorbrands.in/men.html

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby Ubuntu on 2013-03-26T19:49:00

From what I've read, coffee only gives a short term energy boost, it exhausts the adrenal glands in the long run. I think you'd be better off giving up coffee since caffeine, alcohol, refined carbohydrates/sugar and high (bad) fat foods have a negative long-term impact on brain chemistry that plays a role in emotional well-being. I think if you go long enough without it you'll lose your desire for it. Then again, there may be some people out there who could never adjust to life without these foods and for whom the benefit of giving them up wouldn't compensate for the cost.

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Re: Should I give up coffee?

Postby peterhurford on 2013-03-27T14:55:00

Another data point: After going without coffee for a month, last Monday, I had a cup of coffee. Instead of falling asleep during my classes as has been usual today and last week, I was wide awake and attentive during all my classes Monday.
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